Green White Counter deck conversion into Abzan Counters for Theros Rotation

[kurufal]

So I updated my Green White devotion Hydra deck into a Green White Counter deck with the release of Origins. I didn't need the devotion because most of my creatures were under 3 mana and pumped easily into mid-range.

I have gone 3-1 and 4-0 at FNM the last couple of weeks plus some other 3-1 at other events with the Green White Counters deck as is. I will play it until Theros rotates out.

Here's the deck:

http://deck.tk/1Kgw36jc

Deck: G/W Counters

//Lands
12 Forest
5 Plains
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Windswept Heath

//Spells
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
4 Dromoka's Command
3 Gods Willing
4 Hardened Scales
3 Inspiring Call
3 Solidarity of Heroes

//Creatures
3 Abzan Battle Priest
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Managorger Hydra
1 Woodland Bellower

//Sideboard
2 Servant of the Scale
2 Collected Company
2 Sword of the Animist
1 See the Unwritten
1 Gods Willing
2 Enduring Scalelord
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Animist's Awakening
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt

Display deck statistics

And here is what I turned it into for the rotation (obviously pending cards from the new set):

I added black to replace the Fleecemane Lion with Rakshasa Deathdealer and most importantly to replace Ajani, Mentor of Heroes with Sorin, Solemn Visitor. This gave me the opportunity to replace the Solidarity of Heroes with Abzan Charm and Gods Willing was replaced with Feat of Resistance (which I may also replace with Enshrouding Mist due to my final replacement); Which is I replaced Elvish Mystic with Honored Hierarch. The mana if renowned could make it a free cast if I need to get a Green or Black mana instead of a white from as well.

http://deck.tk/2Mqe39Uo

Deck: Abzan Counters

//Lands
8 Forest
5 Plains
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath

//Spells
3 Abzan Charm
4 Dromoka's Command
3 Feat of Resistance
4 Hardened Scales
3 Inspiring Call
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor

//Creatures
2 Abzan Battle Priest
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Honored Hierarch
4 Managorger Hydra
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
1 Woodland Bellower

//Sideboard
2 Servant of the Scale
2 Collected Company
2 Sword of the Animist
1 See the Unwritten
2 Enduring Scalelord
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Animist's Awakening
4 Siege Rhino

Display deck statistics

Anyway, tell me what you think. I will likely only replace what I've already replaced and the mana for the current Green White Counters deck has been perfect every game so I don't want to mess with it too much other than color fixing for Abzan.

[Warden of Silence]

Hello.

So this is a good deck. The only thing that needs work is your mana, as you need a bit more green to support your deck.

Besides that, I can't really think of a major problem. Well done.

[kurufal]

I can't think of a better way to do mana fixing for this deck.

 

Anyone else have any idea's?

[Drunk Cynic]

More plains, less forests.

-4 forests, +4 Blossoming Sands

[kurufal]

That doesn't make sense, I have 19 greens and 8 white in the abzan colors. The mana was the one thing I specifically said works perfect in the green/white currently...

=\

[Churchill42]

Some initial thoughts:

1.  I don't really understand your sideboard: it seems to consist of cards that are in keeping with your general theme but weren't good enough to cut it re: inclusion, instead of situational cards (eg Naturalize) that would aid you against certain types of decks.

2.  Not sure I like either of:

4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
1 Woodland Bellower

Good cards, but don't fit with what you're doing.  What about Sandsteppe Mastodon for your huge beatstick and another counters creature of some kind for your 4-of?

3.  Maybe I'm missing something--why did you replace Anjani with Sorin? [edit: Ah, nvm--for the rotation.  Not sure I love Sorin in this deck.]

[kurufal]

I think Sorin, solemn visitor is extremely underrated. His +1 is one of the most undervalued things in the standard in my opinion. "Until your next turn, creatures you control get +1/+0 and Lifelink"

I was thinking about running the Rakshasa Deathdealer to replace the Fleecemane Lion, but I also sideboarded the Siege Rhino because they are a huge game changer. The problem is my curve if I do that. What do I replace the Fleecemane Lion with?

As for the sideboard: most the cards in there are just from what I had in the deck as I was originally building it and most of which are not actually in my sideboard.

[Churchill42]

Even if he is underrated, the issue is whether Sorin works in the general thrust of your deck.  You lose something when you have a card that's "just good" but doesn't take advantage of any synergies with the rest of the deck.

Regarding your Fleecemane conundrum, I would advise Avatar of the Resolute.  Another alternatives to consider might be: Warden of the First Tree, but I'd go with the AotR.  If you fall super in-love with just playing this deck, two Hangarback Walkers would be another option, though pricey.

also, why no Incremental Growth?  Maybe instead of Sorin even?  Or perhaps take out one Sorin and one Inspiring Call and put in two Incremental Growth s?  Mana demands are high, but big payoff with the hardened scales. 

[kurufal]

The Fleecemane Lion is a Turn 2 drop. The Avatar of the Resolute is only good if you drop him with one or two creatures out already. It might work good if I can get my Renown on the Honored Hierarch before I cast it turn 2 but That's a small if and I'd rather play Hardened scales to further pump the Honored Hierarch than an avatar with only only 1 extra counter. Warden of the First Tree was a huge thought, but I just couldn't make room. The Raskhasa Deathdealer has a cheap infinite pump and even has regenerate to replace the Hexproof, Indestructible of the Lion. I may drop the abzan charm for the Warden's but not much else.

Incremental Growth is crazy expensive for this deck and the Inspiring call is card advantage and a combat trick.

A turn 4 Sorin, Solemn Visitor will make people think twice about a Siege Rhino (pretty much the turn 4 standard for the foreseeable future), because they have to deal with it or he will get out of control with the lifelink. The win condition for this deck is 100% on my side of the board. The opponent can have 4 Siege Rhino's out with a Nissa in the background and whether I win or not depends on my board state, not theirs.

[Churchill42]

A few counterpoints:

Avatar of the Resolute is not just a turn 2 drop. Fleecemane is a two-drop 3/3 that becomes a turn 4 hexproof indestructible.  Note two things: it takes your mana for two turns, and indestructible isn't very valuable when you already have hexproof.  Avatar of the resolute, on the other hand, has value early, mid, and late game.  Early, two G for a 3/2 trample reach is useful, even if you end up just buying a turn against an ensouled Ornithopter.  Mid-game, that same two mana gets you a x/x depending on how many creatures you have out, with additional counters arising due to your other cards.  Same principle for late game.  It's going to be a 4-of.  And the Fleecemane doesn't even have much value late game.

Incremental growth: assuming you have hardened scales out, you're talking about 5 mana for 2, 3, and 4 counters on different creatures.  That's 9 permanent pluses for 5 mana. Inspiring Call, while a fine card, is only really mana efficient if you have at least two cards with counters out.  It's a fine card, but to re-propose, I think I'd put 2-of and do 2-of Feat of Resistance, putting in 2 Incremental Growth.

Azban Charm can take care of your Rhino problem--I don't really see how Sorin helps there as much.

Wanted to reiterate the Woodland Bellower / Sandsteppe Mastodon thing.  You should opt for the latter.

[kurufal]

First and foremost: the one deck I have yet to lose against is any form of thopter deck; Dramoka's Command is huge against it. A chump blocker for Ornithopter (which will rotate out anyway) is a null point.

Let me start by giving a heads up on what this is weak against: Blue/Black control and most Mid-range Since they run early game card advantage spells like thoughtsieze (which I assume will be replaced with depsise and similar if the mana base allows it to even exist after the scry lands rotate[however, the zendikar will have it's own form of rare lands; not similar with the old fetch])

Decks I usually never lose to: Mono-red (usually once I play managorger and they start trying to get their tokens out they just pump my managorger); U/R Ensoul; almost any form of aggro. Once I tell my opponent I gained 10 life they usually scoop because they are out of gas.

The problem really is what I replace the rotating cards out with, not how I change the deck. The deck is 100% fundamentally sound as green/white. I'm not removing my protection spells because they bring my creatures to mid-range and even pump my creatures while doing it, making it able to compete against most mid-range after stomping the aggro. The Avatar of the Resolute has no pump into midrange unless I put in Incremental Growth. Then the problem becomes: I cant carry my creatures into mid-range.

I'm not scared of 5/5's because (and the reason I'm keeping sorin, solemn visitor) by turn 4 my Managorger Hydra is going to be at least a 4/4 not including sorins +1.Once the opponent takes his turn my managorger is going to be very scary and have lifelink. The opponents Siege Rhino basically becomes a chump blocker by my next turn. He's not going to swing into a 6/5 Managorger with Lifelink after my next turn.

When would I ever want to cast Avatar of the Resolute on turn 2? My ramp and board state by turn 4 turns to crap if I don't have a turn 2 in this deck.

And you should save Fleecemane lions Monsterous for a combat trick on turn 5 or 7, you don't just drop / pump.

Woodland bellower pumps my board state. It gives me an extra managorger hydra for free. The Bolster is probably just going to put the 5 counters on my Honored Hierach anyway, as bolster is very weak in the fact that it picks the target for you. I feel as if everything you're suggesting is to counter the least scary deck for me: U/R Ensoul.

Blue/Black would destroy me if I took out any of my protection. Incremental Growth would only work if I had 3 creatures out, which while it happens often, it's really not that efficient once your turn 5 is over and he's wiped the board and you can't stop it. I will also always have at least 2 creatures with counters by turn 3. If I don't it's because I cast my Managorger Hydra and then when I do Cast Inspiring Call it will trigger before Inspiring Call resolves.

To reiterate, I'm honestly just looking for spell alternatives and replacements. I'm not looking for any major deck changes.

On a final note: I am trying to acknowledge your suggestions. The Sandstep Mastodon is a good suggestion but I don't think it gives as big a trump late game as a 6/5 + a free creature. The avatar of the resolute doesn't seem to replace Rakshasa Deathdealer as the Deathdealer is played on turn 2 and can become a chump blocker with regenerate on the upcoming turns to protect my board state, where as Avatar of the Resolute just dies; and then becomes a free mana dump come mid-range.

Warden of the First Tree will definitely be sideboarded and may be mainboarded over Abzan charm if the charm gets too expensive as my 3 and 4 drops will be prioritized as managorger Hydra (3) and Sorin, Solemn Visitor (4) and Abzan Battle priest (4). It's not there but Virulent Plague will also be sideboarded out with the Abzan charm if I'm to face thopter or any other form of token deck.

Is there any other 2 drops that I may have missed that could replace that in the deck? and more importantly: while sorin doesnt round out the theme of the deck he makes it more competitive. I'm not looking for a theme. What could Sorin be replaced with as a 4 mana chump that pushing my creatures over items like Siege Rhino or similar 4th turn bombs?

[Churchill42]

So I'm bumping this because I do think it could be competitive in standard beyond being a Johnny-type fun theme deck, and I wanted to update with some playtesting I've done and to solicit further thoughts on your cardlist.


//Creatures - 20
2 Honored Hierarch
2 Servant of the Scale
3 Avatar of the Resolute
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Managorged Hydra
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Abzan Falconer
2 Abzan Battle Priest
1 Siege Rhino (considering swapping one Falconer for another Siege Rhino)
2 Sunscorch Regent

//Spells - 17
4 Hardened Scales
4 Abzan Charm
3 Feat of Resistance
2 Abzan Ascendancy
2 Gleam of Authority (still testing this one)
2 [ Dromoka’s Command or Utter End --been testing both - considering making this a 3-of and dropping Azban Charm to a 3-of]

//Lands – 23
2 Scoured Barrens
2 Jungle Hollow
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
7 Forest
6 Plains

// Sideboard

[3 Back to Nature]
[2 Utter End or Dromoka's Command]
[2 Naturalize]
[2 Ultimate Price]
[2 Murderous Cut]
[2 Hallowed Moonlight]
[2 Siege Rhino]


Only just started testing.  Abzan Battle Priest and Abzan Falconer are both great, but the problem with them is that they should be treated like legendaries because a second one is often a dead draw. 

I like having Utter End in the deck because it helps a great deal to deal with planeswalkers like Ugin or especially Elspeth, Sun's Champion.  It's just very very versatile.

I don't see how Dromoka's Command is particularly helpful against Thopters, at least to the extent that it doesn't deal directly with them.  and the fact that it allows the opponent to choose the relevant target is a massive setback, as both in mill and in ensoul decks, there will often be another alternative for them to choose when they have to.

[Drunk Cynic]

Rakshasa Deathdealer is not a turn two play; while it costs 2 cmc, it is better as a turn 4 if the mana supports it.

In a deck centered around creatures Abzan Battle Priest and Abzan Falconer are both great. They are well priced even before considering their static abilities. Further, given the bulk of creature removal currently pushed in standard, if they are a cornerstone they should be 4 of.

[Churchill42]

Rakshasa Deathdealer is not a turn two play; while it costs 2 cmc, it is better as a turn 4 if the mana supports it.

In a deck centered around creatures Abzan Battle Priest and Abzan Falconer are both great. They are well priced even before considering their static abilities. Further, given the bulk of creature removal currently pushed in standard, if they are a cornerstone they should be 4 of.

I think the opportunity cost of 4-of'ing them is too high.  If you have one Falcon out, then you get the bulk of the benefit from casting one: mass flying.  While a second one isn't disastrous (I was exaggerating in calling it a dead draw), the value of it v. any of the other creatures is almost certainly lower--esp when you consider that for the same cost as a Monk you can drop a Siege Rhino.

[Churchill42]

Whoops, decklist should have read:

//Creatures - 20
2 Honored Hierarch
2 Servant of the Scale
3 Avatar of the Resolute
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Managorger Hydra
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Abzan Falconer
1 Abzan Battle Priest
1 Siege Rhino (considering swapping one Falconer for another Siege Rhino)
1 Sunscorch Regent

//Spells - 17
4 Hardened Scales
4 Abzan Charm
3 Feat of Resistance
2 Abzan Ascendancy
2 Gleam of Authority (still testing this one)
2 Dromoka’s Command or Utter End --been testing both - considering making this a 3-of and dropping Azban Charm to a 3-of

//Lands – 23
2 Scoured Barrens
2 Jungle Hollow
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
7 Forest
6 Plains

// Sideboard

3 Back to Nature
2 Utter End or Dromoka's Command
2 Naturalize
2 Ultimate Price
2 Murderous Cut
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Siege Rhino