Planeswalker weaknesses?

[skeri]

 I know that everyone loves planeswalkers, so for starters this is not a planeswalker bashing post 

How can I compete against decks that run multiple different planeswalkers? I am going to play To the Slaughter in one of my decks, but I was wondering if anyone had any competitive success in playing against them without using planeswalkers in response? This is mostly a strategy question so I'm interested in hearing how people prepare their decks and play strategically to deal with opponents who have multiple planeswalkers at their disposal. I'm still fairly new at the game so I'm wondering if they have any weaknesses or quirks that I'm unaware of.

[kiochy]

Ruinous Path ?

I just started to play outside of my casual circle, I didn't had to face too much planes yet. The only times I faced some( a T2 G/W token deck) I had a Red aggro and rushed his face instead of dealing with them.

[skeri]

I am currently playing a red/black aggro vampire deck, I am happy to hear that you rushed in on them because that was my current plan. I have added Ruinous Path to my wishlist as well as transgress the mind. Thanks!

[Bartley]

Some of the best ways of dealing with Planes walkers are re-directing non combat damage, unblock able creatures, or just creature aggro. Trample is good too.

if your playing red/black vamps there are plenty of Zap spells you could toss in there or Dreadbore, Hero's Downfall.

[robort]

In Standard,

Blue: Negate, Compelling Deterrence, Clash of Wills, Disperse, Overwhelming Denial, Spell Shrivel, Scatter to the winds, Broken Concentration, Abstruse Interference, Calculated Dismissal, Void Shatter, Brutal Expulsion, Contradict, Confirm Suspicions, and Silumgar's command,

White: Quarantine field, Suppression Bonds, and Anguished Unmaking.

Black: To The Slaughter, Kolaghan's command, Duress, Transgress The Mind, Pick The Brain, Ruinous Path. Nightsnare, and Remorseless Punishment

Red: Burn From Within, Rolling Thunder, Avacyn's Judgment, Touch Of The Void, Exquisite Firecraft, Devour In Flames, Lightning Javelin, Chandra's Ignition, Cone Of Flame, Fall Of The Titans, Draconic Roar, Reality Hemorrhage, Atarka's Command, Fiery Temper, Geistblast, Twin Bolt, Chandra's Fury, Sarkhan's Rage, Consuming Sinkhole, Molten Vortex, Impact Tremors, Molten Nursery, and Pyromancer's Assault.

I didn't think I'd find anything in green but I did. Green: Display Of Dominance.

Now some of those card may be meehh, but they all can do something to a planeswalker.

[skeri]

That is awesome, thank you for taking the time to find all those!

[NathanJ]

Yeah, I've played against a lot of Planeswalker-heavy decks. They can be annoying (Garruk, Apex Predator is one of my favorite cards for a reason...) but honestly they aren't that hard to deal with in most builds. Black/red aggro is a pretty good build that shouldn't have too much difficulty as long as you can get around whatever defenses your opponents are using. I don't know what format you're playing so I can only say so much, but sound all-around advice is what the other guys said in the form of rushing them. I would add though, that using flying creatures is always a solid means of getting to them quickly. Even looking at the current stock of vampires it's pretty easy to find solid fliers to use (Heir of Falkenreath....looking at that one especially..). Otherwise robort's comprehensive list of Planeswalker hate should give you removal options.

[G. Moto]

   Best way to get rid of planeswalkers is to use spells that either destroy or remove PERMANENTS. This is key because most spells nowadays only target creatures, but the ones that say non-creature spells or permanents is what you want to look for. For example, if you know they have a planeswalker in their hands you can play pick the brain (and exile it and all other copies from their deck). Vessel of malignity is also something that can get them while they're hiding in the hand. Also wolf of devil's breach could be a good way to burn them off the field using a creature. B/R doesn't really have too much anti-planeswalker stuff but you can always deal burn damage and have it pointed towards the walker itself. For example; Lightning axe, discard (activating one of your vamp's madness triggers), deal 5 damage to a player, then have the damage redirected to a walker. Just a few ideas you might want to try and run. If you feel that B/R isn't doing it for you much you can always try out U/B (blue/Black) or something using Green.

[skeri]

Thanks for the advice. I really enjoy B/R, I just needed a bit of information to help tweak it. I have noticed that the aggro type deck plays best on the offense but can get really screwed if an opponent forces it to play defensively. I'm just trying to patch holes in my strategy.   

[robort]

You are welcome but I couldn't have done all that without this site. I went into deckbuilder, or build new deck. Clicked on standard so only cards shown are standard. Then clicked mana so it shows from lowest to highest. Then did a search colors with first being blue, and then did a search type from instants, sorcerys and enchantments. Put the cursor on card name, read it and put planeswalker hate in the list. That's one of the main reasons I like this site. Easy access to cards to find.

Gmoto, thank you for the one I missed and lightning axe does damage to a creature. The redirect is spot on as long as it isn't combat damage, one can redirect damage from a player to a planeswalker.

I didn't do creatures for I was thinking only combat damage. However some decent combo tricks came to mind. Such as disperse right before they end thier turn and on your turn do pick the brain because you know they have that planeswalker in thier hand that was put there by you when you played disperse.

[G. Moto]

   @robort, its no problem man and I understand. So only non-combat damage can be directed towards a walker. But can I TRAMPLE over another creature and have that excess damage dealt  to it that way as well? The reason why I ask is because green is apparently good at removing artifacts, enchantments and lands if need be, but I do not see much permanent destruction. I checked both the Battle for Zendikar block and Dragon's of Tarkir (all being standard) and the display of dominance was the closest that I came to green walker remover. Now if TRAMPLE damage can be redirected to planeswalkers then green will be in business because it has an abundance of that.

[Bartley]

   @robort, its no problem man and I understand. So only non-combat damage can be directed towards a walker. But can I TRAMPLE over another creature and have that excess damage dealt  to it that way as well? The reason why I ask is because green is apparently good at removing artifacts, enchantments and lands if need be, but I do not see much permanent destruction. I checked both the Battle for Zendikar block and Dragon's of Tarkir (all being standard) and the display of dominance was the closest that I came to green walker remover. Now if TRAMPLE damage can be redirected to planeswalkers then green will be in business because it has an abundance of that.

306.7. If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 614.9) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 616). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.

For combat damage, the opponent decides for each attacking creature whether that creature is attacking you or your planeswalker, and there is no redirection involved.
508.1b If the defending player controls any planeswalkers, or the game allows the active player to attack multiple other players, the active player announces which player or planeswalker each of the chosen creatures is attacking.

[robort]

Thank you bartley.

I always try to explain to players new and old the diffrence from combat damage to just damage. The just damage is the important part.
Now to really have fun with "just damage". Chandra's ignition used with a creature that has double strike. It does "just damage" but no combat damage so double strike won't work because double strike is only for combat damage. Now if the creature has either lifelink or deathtouch, both of those are used because both use the word "damage". They can be used in combat damage and "just damage".

It may seem confusing to some but those are the rules. I always think if 2 creatures are fighting are they not combatants in combat with each other? Yes in the real world this may be but in magic combat is only during the attack phase.
Trample is part of combat and assignment damage.  Any damage left over may be assigned to target player.
Kinda funny the rules say may, "Nah I don't want to assign the rest of the damage to my opponent".

[Jace27]

My favorite way to deal with walker is combat tricks. Attack with more creatures than they have blockers and buff an unblocked creature with a Titan's Strength or something of the liking. If they have more blockers, Rush of Adrenaline especially following a Lightning Axe is very useful. Also, in B/R vampires, avoiding the planeswalkers and just finishing your opponents can be the best way to go.

[Bartley]

My favorite way to deal with walker is combat tricks. Attack with more creatures than they have blockers and buff an unblocked creature with a Titan's Strength or something of the liking. If they have more blockers, Rush of Adrenaline especially following a Lightning Axe is very useful. Also, in B/R vampires, avoiding the planeswalkers and just finishing your opponents can be the best way to go.

Lightning Axe?  that says target creature so you can't use it to target a planeswalker:(

and I agree on just finishing off the opponets... Planes walkers have soo much hype that I use them as a distraction some times just to stay alive hehe ... Yes yess.... target my planes walker instead of me.