When did it become okay to shuffle packs during a draft?

[ladof]

The last sealed tourney I went to, I beat the first guy I was putted against and he asked me to look at his deck. I helped him rebuilt it with the same colors, but quite a few different cards. I explained why we were choosing each change and why certain cards worked better together than others. He ended up 2-2 and largely, he said, because of what I helped him with. (Funnily enough, we played a for fun game afterwards and his revamped deck beat me, so he could have been 3-1.)

Helping newer players just makes the game better. It's not as fun to beat bad players, to me. So hopefully the guy learned something and next time we meet, he'll have built a better deck the first time, looking for the things I taught him. Then he's a better player, and a better challenge.

[Tang88]

i know what u mean, when i go into the game i was during the  innistrad. and playing with the people in my town its just like they have no soul  . so i brought card lots to increase my chances to make good decks. and  also cards for standard to help me and others out

[xcver]

Hey,

some info on the shuffling the remaining draft pack things, so there are a few things why that is happening:

1. It is actually enforced by the rules somewhat indirectly. These state "Players are not permitted to reveal hidden information of any kind to other participants in the draft regarding their own picks or what they want others to pick.". You could for instance order the cards so that whomever gets your pack next could read a signal (for instance put the color he should not draft last in the pack). Especially troublesome if you are passing to a teammate or even friend at casual. At Competitive and Professional REL drafts this is interpreted in a way that you always should shuffle and count when you pass the cards. When drafting in a store I would suggest it at well because 2 friends might be collaborating
2. People will emulate what they see from pros.
3. If you played a few times with enforced shuffling you will do it out of habit to not forget next time.
4. Print runs caused specific commons to be in a set pattern. If a player memorized the patterns he had a chance to know which actual card was taken if it was a common. However this issue has been resolved 2 years ago with how the packs are seeded now (but I may be mistaken)

Cheers

[skeri]

@g. moto that is true. It doesn't feel good to just beat people who have no clue what they're are doing and I wouldn't have learned how to play if people hadn't been patient with me at FNM and helped me out where they could.

[KouriNick]

xcver brings up some good points. While its definitely frustrating to watch people shuffle and bend up brand new cards, there can be legitimate reasons.

If nothing else it will make for a great new card in the next "Un-" set.

"Ruining the Value!" CMM: 0
"Cast this card only while Drafting"
"Replicate: 0; If you see another player shuffling the cards in their pack, you may reveal 'Ruining the Value' and say 'STOP THAT!'. If you do, that player must stop and reveal their latest pick. If the flashback cost is paid and you target the same player, you may take one of the cards he/she drafted so far; Flashback: 0"

[G. Moto]

    That sounds like some complex drafting. Maybe it could be during gameplay: if you catch your opponent shuffling their hand they have to SHOW you their hand. Then make them discard the card with the highest rarity. That'd be hilarious.

[Frimmel]

Hey,

some info on the shuffling the remaining draft pack things, so there are a few things why that is happening:

1. It is actually enforced by the rules somewhat indirectly. These state "Players are not permitted to reveal hidden information of any kind to other participants in the draft regarding their own picks or what they want others to pick.". You could for instance order the cards so that whomever gets your pack next could read a signal (for instance put the color he should not draft last in the pack). Especially troublesome if you are passing to a teammate or even friend at casual. At Competitive and Professional REL drafts this is interpreted in a way that you always should shuffle and count when you pass the cards. When drafting in a store I would suggest it at well because 2 friends might be collaborating
2. People will emulate what they see from pros.
3. If you played a few times with enforced shuffling you will do it out of habit to not forget next time.
4. Print runs caused specific commons to be in a set pattern. If a player memorized the patterns he had a chance to know which actual card was taken if it was a common. However this issue has been resolved 2 years ago with how the packs are seeded now (but I may be mistaken)

Cheers

Wouldn't then NOT shuffling be NOT signaling? How can you signal if you've left the pack as opened less your draw and as passed to you less your draw? With only fifteen cards it is easy for even a novice to "fake a shuffle" and stack the pack to send a signal. Granted it had been back in the time of Mercadian Masques since I'd drafted but the drafts I'd played came with specific instructions not to change the order of the packs.

Last week was my second draft and no one was shuffling in the first, and no one seemed to be going to in the second until the guy next to me does and I call him out. Judge says it is okay and everyone starts doing it. Slowed down and made making picks much more laborious.

I guess I was also cranky because I thought it would be Standard but since it was the day after being closed for a holiday on the usual draft day it was draft instead. Plus I'm just bad at draft and then everyone agreed that the packs were bad.

Then it was only three rounds for seven guys and I got stuck with the bye so only got two matches. Lately it has been too little of why I think the game is fun and too much of all the annoyances that made me leave.

[G. Moto]

   @Frimmel, I'm sorry if pack opening and card shuffling has steered you away from the game for so long. But really the game has come a long way from where it used to be. Cards that seem like "garbage" (by other players) can be gold in the right deck. For example, behold the beyond is a card I collected during a draft because I had never seen it before. I didn't use it because I thought "Why would I discard my ENTIRE hand?" Then once I started playing madness I thought "I GOTTA find a deck for this card!" I'm thinking maybe it could go in a B/R devil burn deck (I think this cause my Grixis deck worked well in a similar fashion). Also something that I always tell people, there's no such thing as a bad card, only limited uses for it.

[Frimmel]

   @Frimmel, I'm sorry if pack opening and card shuffling has steered you away from the game for so long. But really the game has come a long way from where it used to be. Cards that seem like "garbage" (by other players) can be gold in the right deck. For example, behold the beyond is a card I collected during a draft because I had never seen it before. I didn't use it because I thought "Why would I discard my ENTIRE hand?" Then once I started playing madness I thought "I GOTTA find a deck for this card!" I'm thinking maybe it could go in a B/R devil burn deck (I think this cause my Grixis deck worked well in a similar fashion). Also something that I always tell people, there's no such thing as a bad card, only limited uses for it.

I don't have annoyances with the cards. I'm not one of the "why did they make this card" guys. I don't like that there is a "junk rare" box.

The draft just had a bad mix of cards. This is not to say that the set is bad (SOI.) It was just a difficult pool of cards to pick from.

The constant shuffling of their hand isn't what drove me away before. That didn't really exist yet. For the most part I just really don't like most of the guys that play Magic. If it wasn't a good game that I enjoyed most of these guys are not who I would associate with even at the  minimalist acquaintance level necessary for playing. Everyone has something to teach us but too many of these guys are way too expert at teaching you how not to be.

[G. Moto]

   That's I completely agree with. No one likes a game where they can't enjoy themselves because their opponent is being so hyper-critical. If you're good and are just making sure rules aren't broken then that's understandable but doing that CONSTANTLY can get a little annoying.