Preventing Sacrifice Mechanic?

[Oragren]

hi i am building a U/W Heavy Control Deck.

my metagame is using heavy eldrazi token gen and also sacrifice decks.

i am in the process of almost finishing my deck but i want to sub board a rest in peace.

but i want to make sure that what i think it does actually does it,

1) Will prevent cards like Butcher Of Malakir from making me sacrifice my cards.
2) Will prevent eldrazi spawn and scion tokens from using there abilities.

any help on the ruling of this would be great.

thanks

[KouriNick]

In order for something to "Die" it MUST go through the graveyard, so you are right about situation 1. If your opponent has a Butcher Of Malakir in play and you cast Rest in Peace, nothing actually dies, since it is exiled instead. Pillar of Flame shows this interaction in another way. It says if something would "die", exile it instead, meaning it never actually dies and therefore "die" triggers don't go off.

As for the second situation, I don't think Rest in Peace does anything to stop Eldrazi Scion tokens from being Sacrificed for mana. Since the token just reads: "Sacrifice this creature: Add 1 to your mana pool" and states nothing about dying, they'll still get their mana. However, if they also have the Butcher in play, you won't have to sacrifice anything. This is because Tokens can go to other zones (besides the battlefield) but as soon as they get there they cease to exist. In this case, the token leaves the battlefield and tries to go to the Graveyard, but Rest in Peace diverts it to the exile zone, stopping any "die" triggers.

I hope this clears things up for you

[Oragren]

thank you for your reply.

the reason i am confused is that the tokens must be sacrificed to generate mana but the definition of sacrifice in mtg as far as i was aware is that it goes to the graveyard and there for if rest in peace is in play the cost to generate that mana is to go to the graveyard.   and it doesn't so its ability cost is not met and there for cant even sacrifice to begin with. or if they do it gets exiled and no mana gained?

701.14a To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the battlefield directly to its owner’s graveyard. A player can’t sacrifice something that isn’t a permanent, or something that’s a permanent he or she doesn’t control. Sacrificing a permanent doesn’t destroy it, so regeneration or other effects that replace destruction can’t affect this action.

[KouriNick]

Its definitely a confusing interaction, but i think where the misunderstanding is occurring is in the difference between effects and actions. Sacrificing is just an action who's effect is to put the permanent into the graveyard, but Rest in Peace produces an alternate effect which moves the card to exile instead.

If Rest in Peace worked in a way that completely disrupted the ability to sacrifice, it would also have to means destroy effects and the Legendary rule wouldn't work (since the rules text on "Destroy" means to put the permanent into the graveyard, and the rule for Legends says if a second instance enters the battlefield, one must go to the graveyard). But they still works because Rest in Peace just provides an alternate effect for actions that would otherwise go to the graveyard.

Rest in Peace even hints at this idea in its Text. "If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead". Sacrificing would put a card into a graveyard, so it's exiled instead.

Hope that clears things up.

[Oragren]

YES IT DOES THANK YOU

[Jabilac]

KouriNick is exactly right about this interaction.  Eldrazi Scion can be sacrificed for mana even with Rest In Peace on the board for all the reasons KouriNick already stated and die triggers don't activate because the card never reaches the graveyard.

I feel I need also add that while Rest in Peace is on the battlefield you can still attempt to put cards into a graveyard even though they can't go there.  That interaction is highlighted with Eldrazi Processors like Wasteland Strangler.  Even though cards can not be put into the graveyard you can still attempt to do it and the card will leave exile and return immediately to exile.  That will fulfill the requirement of the Processor and will still keep their graveyard empty.

117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.

[robort]

Just a refrence about a token.

110.5e A token is subject to anything that affects permanents in general or that affects the token’s card type or subtype. A token isn’t a card (even if represented by a card that has a Magic back or that came from a Magic booster pack). #

110.5f A token that’s phased out, or that’s in a zone other than the battlefield, ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.) #

704.5d If a token is phased out, or is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist.

[Fricks]

Maybe if you can find a place for summary dismissal? Wouldnt that stop the ability of the scions to produce mana? Im new to control.. So i may be wrong

[robort]

Maybe if you can find a place for summary dismissal? Wouldnt that stop the ability of the scions to produce mana? Im new to control.. So i may be wrong

It sure would just have to make sure it's played last om the stack 

[Jabilac]

Maybe if you can find a place for summary dismissal? Wouldnt that stop the ability of the scions to produce mana? Im new to control.. So i may be wrong

I do not think you can respond to the sacrifice mechanic of Eldrazi Scions.  It is a mana ability that does not target.  A targetted mana ability like Deathrite Shaman can be responded to because it targets something.  Eldrazi Scions have no target and just produce mana similar to a land.

605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or
otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)

405.6. Some things that happen during the game don’t use the stack.

405.6c Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability both produces mana and has another
effect, the mana is produced and the other effect happens immediately. If a player had priority
before a mana ability was activated, that player gets priority after it resolves. (See rule 605,
“Mana Abilities.”)

[Fricks]

Maybe if you can find a place for summary dismissal? Wouldnt that stop the ability of the scions to produce mana? Im new to control.. So i may be wrong

I do not think you can respond to the sacrifice mechanic of Eldrazi Scions.  It is a mana ability that does not target.  A targetted mana ability like Deathrite Shaman can be responded to because it targets something.  Eldrazi Scions have no target and just produce mana similar to a land.

605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or
otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)

405.6. Some things that happen during the game don’t use the stack.

405.6c Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability both produces mana and has another
effect, the mana is produced and the other effect happens immediately. If a player had priority
before a mana ability was activated, that player gets priority after it resolves. (See rule 605,
“Mana Abilities.”)

Good to know! Thanks!

[robort]

Maybe if you can find a place for summary dismissal? Wouldnt that stop the ability of the scions to produce mana? Im new to control.. So i may be wrong

I do not think you can respond to the sacrifice mechanic of Eldrazi Scions.  It is a mana ability that does not target.  A targetted mana ability like Deathrite Shaman can be responded to because it targets something.  Eldrazi Scions have no target and just produce mana similar to a land.

605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or
otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)

405.6. Some things that happen during the game don’t use the stack.

405.6c Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability both produces mana and has another
effect, the mana is produced and the other effect happens immediately. If a player had priority
before a mana ability was activated, that player gets priority after it resolves. (See rule 605,
“Mana Abilities.”)

Rulings
7/13/2016   Spells that can’t be countered are exiled by Summary Dismissal. They won’t resolve.
7/13/2016   Only activated and triggered abilities on the stack are countered. Static abilities of objects remain unaffected, and activated and triggered abilities of objects may be activated or may trigger again later in the turn. Spells and abilities that have already resolved aren’t affected.

[Jabilac]

Maybe if you can find a place for summary dismissal? Wouldnt that stop the ability of the scions to produce mana? Im new to control.. So i may be wrong

I do not think you can respond to the sacrifice mechanic of Eldrazi Scions.  It is a mana ability that does not target.  A targetted mana ability like Deathrite Shaman can be responded to because it targets something.  Eldrazi Scions have no target and just produce mana similar to a land.

605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or
otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)

405.6. Some things that happen during the game don’t use the stack.

405.6c Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability both produces mana and has another
effect, the mana is produced and the other effect happens immediately. If a player had priority
before a mana ability was activated, that player gets priority after it resolves. (See rule 605,
“Mana Abilities.”)

Rulings
7/13/2016   Spells that can’t be countered are exiled by Summary Dismissal. They won’t resolve.
7/13/2016   Only activated and triggered abilities on the stack are countered. Static abilities of objects remain unaffected, and activated and triggered abilities of objects may be activated or may trigger again later in the turn. Spells and abilities that have already resolved aren’t affected.

Exactly.  Only activated and triggered abilities on the stack are exiled.  I do not think sacrificing an Eldrazi Scion uses the stack at all as per my last post.

605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated.


Yeah after a quick search I found this page https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/battle-zendikar-mechanics-2015-08-31 and this quote from it

Eldrazi Scions are very similar to Eldrazi Spawn. They're created by Eldrazi-themed spells in a variety of ways. Sometimes it's an enters-the-battlefield triggered ability. Sometimes it's a "dies" triggered ability. Sometimes it's a sorcery. No matter how they're created, Eldrazi Scions all have the ability "Sacrifice this creature: Add 1 to your mana pool." This is a mana ability that doesn't use the stack and can't be responded to, just like tapping a land. And perhaps more importantly, Eldrazi Scions are 1/1. Happy attacking!

I used bold to highlight the relevant sentence.

[keagster]

I meant to say, since you have to sacrifice the creature, it's an activated ability.

[robort]

lol thats a lot

Actions that use the stack[edit source]
casting spells
activating non-mana abilities

Actions that don't[edit source]
playing a land;
tapping a permanent for mana;
unmorphing a creature;
phasing in and out at the start of the untap step (see rule 302.1);
untapping at the start of the untap step (see rule 302.2).
drawing a card at the start of the draw step (see rule 304.1);
declaring attackers at the start of the declare attackers step (see rule 308.1);
declaring blockers at the start of the declare blockers step (see rule 309.1);
the active player discarding down to his or her maximum hand size at the start of the cleanup step (see rule 314);
removing damage from permanents and ending "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects at the start of the cleanup step (see rule 314);
exiling a card with suspend using its suspend ability.
An action that does not use the stack is called a "game action".