Chandra, Torch of Defiance Ruling

[CardinalSilence]

Opponent attacks with Ulamog, putting you down to 1 card left in your library, you draw Chandra, Torch of Defiance, opponent is on 2 health. You +1 to exile the top card in hopes of dealing that final 2 damage but since your library is empty, what happens? thanks

[xxx-magicchris-xxx]

I think you're just not able to use her + 1 ability , because your Libary is not a legal target at this Point.

[SerpentineDom]

No i dont think you can because it requires you to exile the top card then you may cast it or chandra deals 2 damage so i think that her plus one will not work we will just need to wait for the judges or wizards to put out the rulings

[Jabilac]

I think WotC is gonna say that you can +1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance even with no cards in your library.  This will exile nothing and you will not be able to cast anything.  And since you didn't cast the spell Chandra deals 2 damage to each opponent.

The ability doesn't target anything so the fact your library is empty shouldn't matter.  I think we are going to find out it is because of this rule

117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.

[CardinalSilence]

I agree with Jabilac here, since it doesn't say exiling is technically a cost to activate the ability, much like you can plus Liliana on nothing or Nahiri and just not discard a card. And since it just says "If you didn't cast that spell" which technically you didn't you would get off 2 damage. Just have to wait for an official judge's ruling but thanks for the speculation and help!

[Mnemosyne]

This is my interpretation.
If it's your turn, during your upkeep you have 1 card in your library, you draw for turn = 0 cards in library at this point you use an ability or card in your hand that causes you to effectively draw a card, which you don't have, means that you automatically lose?

Impulsive draw: red gets to draw cards (technically, it exiles them) but only has access to cast them for the rest of the turn. The cards that are not cast remain lost in exile. R&D sometimes refers to this as the "Elkin ability"


120.4. A player who attempts to draw a card from a library with no cards in it loses the game the next time a player would receive priority.

104.3c If a player is required to draw more cards than are left in his or her library, he or she draws the remaining cards, and then loses the game the next time a player would receive priority.

120.5. If an effect moves cards from a player’s library to that player’s hand without using the word “draw,” the player has not drawn those cards. This makes a difference for abilities that trigger on drawing cards and effects that replace card draws, as well as if the player’s library is empty.

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.

120.6a An effect that replaces a card draw is applied even if no cards could be drawn because there are no cards in the affected player’s library.
120.6b If an effect replaces a draw within a sequence of card draws, the replacement effect is completed before resuming the sequence.
120.6c Some effects perform additional actions on a card after it’s drawn. If the draw is replaced, the additional action is not performed on any cards that are drawn as a result of that replacement effect or any subsequent replacement effects.


704.5b If a player attempted to draw a card from a library with no cards in it since the last time state-based actions were checked, he or she loses the game.

[Jabilac]

This is my interpretation.
If it's your turn, during your upkeep you have 1 card in your library, you draw for turn = 0 cards in library at this point you use an ability or card in your hand that causes you to effectively draw a card, which you don't have, means that you automatically lose?

Impulsive draw: red gets to draw cards (technically, it exiles them) but only has access to cast them for the rest of the turn. The cards that are not cast remain lost in exile. R&D sometimes refers to this as the "Elkin ability"


120.4. A player who attempts to draw a card from a library with no cards in it loses the game the next time a player would receive priority.

104.3c If a player is required to draw more cards than are left in his or her library, he or she draws the remaining cards, and then loses the game the next time a player would receive priority.

120.5. If an effect moves cards from a player’s library to that player’s hand without using the word “draw,” the player has not drawn those cards. This makes a difference for abilities that trigger on drawing cards and effects that replace card draws, as well as if the player’s library is empty.

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.

120.6a An effect that replaces a card draw is applied even if no cards could be drawn because there are no cards in the affected player’s library.
120.6b If an effect replaces a draw within a sequence of card draws, the replacement effect is completed before resuming the sequence.
120.6c Some effects perform additional actions on a card after it’s drawn. If the draw is replaced, the additional action is not performed on any cards that are drawn as a result of that replacement effect or any subsequent replacement effects.


704.5b If a player attempted to draw a card from a library with no cards in it since the last time state-based actions were checked, he or she loses the game.

All of this information is exactly correct.  If Chanrda, Torch of Defiance was a draw ability then +1 her while your library is empty would cause you to lose the game but her ability isn't a draw effect and it is not a replacement for a draw effect.  It is an exile the top card of your library ability.  Draw replacement abilities are like Abundance, Omen Machine, Notion Thief.  All those effects are draw replacement effects.  They actually replace your draw step or replace draw effects.  Exiling the top card of your library is not a draw replacement effect unless it specifies that it replaces your draw like Omen Machine.  Also if we look at the rulings for Omen Machine it doesn't say if you attempt to exile a card from your library and it is empty then you lose the game.  It specifically stops you from drawing which is what causes you to lose when your library is empty.

[Mnemosyne]

So correct me if I am wrong. You're saying that it can only be a replacement draw effect, if it is stated?

Okay that makes sense.

Could you explain this to me, please, Jabilac. Need to understand how this would operate.

Since you have no cards to exile, you can use the +1 effect, but because you have no cards to 'exile' use, you don't cast the card, as it doesn't exist for you to exile, therefore the 2 damage effect won't occur?

[Jabilac]

I am no expert on Magic Rules or Rulings but the ability itself states that if you do not cast the card in exile then Chandra, Torch of Defiance deals 2 damage to each opponent.  If there was no card in exile to cast the ability should still trigger as usual.  That is because of the ruling I posted earlier in this thread.

117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.

That ruling pertains directly to Chandra and her +1 ability.  Her ability is a "[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect]." The [Do something] in this case is "Exile the top card of your library.  You may cast that card."  Then we have "The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves."  From that we find out that "Exile the top card of your library.  You may cast that card." is a cost that is paid when the abilty resolves.  Then "The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred."  That sentence of the ruling tells us that whether or not the cost was paid is irrelevant.  The only thing that matter is if the clause was fulfilled.

If they wanted to make you have a card in exile and then not cast it to trigger her 2 damage to each opponent then it would be worded something like "Exile the top card of your library.  You may cast that card.  If a card was exiled and was not cast then Chandra, Torch of Defiance deals 2 damage to each opponent."  In that wording we can clearly read that a card had to have been exiled and not cast for the ability to deal 2 damage to each opponent.

[Mnemosyne]

Well, it wasn't whether you are an expert, it was whether you could convey the rules in a way I could understand them, and you did, so thank you.
It interests me how some of the cards are worded, sometimes without the context of the rules, it seems more of how you interpret them.