What do you guys tutor for?

[Soren841]

But when you change the rules it's by definition not the same format, so you cannot site the spirit of said format and use your own made up rules as justification. It's called circular reasoning. You justify your made up rules with your made up rules. The ONLY way to have a discussion about a format outside of your own playgroup of like 4 people is to use the official (standardized?) rules. That's why they exist.

There's no way you think the spirit of EDH is actually a good argument. If someone says "tutors are bad because they're against the spirit of EDH." It just means nothing. Like what does that even mean? If the RC didn't want tutors why are they legal? It's just something they pulled out of their butt because they don't like tutors.

[robort]

Enough of the swearing and belittling Soren, please?

[Soren841]

I haven't belittled anyone, but if I think "the spirit of EDH" is bullshit I'll say it.

[Aetherium Slinky]

You justify your made up rules with your made up rules.

Simply not true. I'm justifying my made up rules with the official rules. We can get all meta here if you like and say that rules cannot have a rule that tells it to ignore the rules because it beats the point of having rules. I'm up for an academic exercise but at the same time it's more criticism towards the format from a purely philosophical point of view than it is about players, playing or tutoring in general. If we get really meta here I don't think such a thing as meaningful conversation can happen in the first place because we don't have an official definition for any of the words we use. We just have a vague consensus that words have meanings. As such expressing thoughts is always fuzzy and you can't iron that out by saying 'we need to follow the official rules'. From a more pragmatic point of view of course it's possible to have a conversation about a format even if it's not well defined and people don't use the same rules. This happens all the time, people have values and opinions and they don't share with each other. Politics revolves almost purely around the fact that there are morals that some people want to follow and others that don't.

TL;DR According to the (circular) rules of Commander it's a valid opinion to ignore tutors for being unfun, because you just happen to feel that way on this particular day.

From my perspective ignoring tutors can be a good thing. It's not necessarily the bestest thing ever but it can be fun or it can make deck building more challenging if that's what tickles you more than playing.

_{EDIT: them => with each other}

[robort]

I haven't belittled anyone, but if I think "the spirit of EDH" is bullshit I'll say it.

Quote "automatically lose at life. Known fact smh" and "Everyone who uses that excuse knows it's dumb they just don't have actual reasoning for why using tutors is bad."

Now again I will ask please?

[Red_Wyrm]

Quote "automatically lose at life. Known fact smh" and "Everyone who uses that excuse knows it's dumb they just don't have actual reasoning for why using tutors is bad."

Now again I will ask please?

Awww I wanted to do that. About to hit post and I get, "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." And you said like exactly my words.


I totally get both points of view. I mean would you rather run grave titan and a demonic tutor to go get him or grave titan and Skithiryx, The Blight Dragon because they are both powerhouses. The latter results in games being different, but the former allows for that versatility if you need a damnation or a path to exile instead of a powerhouse. For this reason I think tutors are straight up better than card draw in most situations. You cast a card to draw a card except it can be any card you want. Not as efficient as a blue sun's zenith for 13 unless maybe you're a control deck and aren't looking for a specific card, but trying to refill your hand.

Everyone is within their rights to build their decks as they please, but can't we agree that a tutor makes your deck more consistent and is usually preferably to card draw except in situations where you want multiple cards? I mean diabolic revelation is a thing, but it isn't played anywhere that I know of. For the small cost of 12 mana you can choose which 7 cards in your deck you'd like as opposed to Spinx's revelation for 10 mana on your opponent's endstep gaining 10 life too.

[Aetherium Slinky]

For this reason I think tutors are straight up better than card draw in most situations. You cast a card to draw a card except it can be any card you want.

Hey, you're forgetting that you actually need to draw the tutor, too! There exist only so many tutors so you can't say your deck is just all tutors and win conditions. I'm too lazy (I probably meant "beyond my skills") to do the math but for a given number of tutors there's probably an optimum number of card draw to ensure you actually draw the tutors during the game.

[Albeer]

My early tutors are for mana (lands or sol ring / mana vault)
Mid- to lategame are combopieces.
I really dont get the whole "combo hate" that some casual players have.
The game needs to end somehow.
Maybe its because they dont understand the rule interactions (they do get verry complicated sometimes).
Really dont know.
I dont mind losing vs combos
and i win with a combo most of the time

("its against the spirit of commander" is a nice sounding way of saying "i personally dont like it and you should change it")

[Red_Wyrm]

For this reason I think tutors are straight up better than card draw in most situations. You cast a card to draw a card except it can be any card you want.

Hey, you're forgetting that you actually need to draw the tutor, too! There exist only so many tutors so you can't say your deck is just all tutors and win conditions. I'm too lazy (I probably meant "beyond my skills") to do the math but for a given number of tutors there's probably an optimum number of card draw to ensure you actually draw the tutors during the game.

Unless you draw 100 cards or you have some deck filter/manipulation like scry of Sensei's divining Top because that tutor can always be on the bottom. That is the only way to ensure you draw it.

Most of my decks have built in card draw such as rhystic study which is not blue sun's zenith for 20, but it definately helps get me closer to the tutor. I don't think I need EXTRA card draw than what I normally run if I run a tutor.

[Aetherium Slinky]

I don't think I need EXTRA card draw than what I normally run if I run a tutor.

True... But if you have tutors why would you have any card draw in the first place?

But you're right, hand sculpting, looting and the best draw spells are usually enough to land on a tutor or find whatever it is that you need. My point was: you do need to find the tutor somehow, too. At that point it becomes a debate about the amount of card draw or hand filtering one should "normally run", in your words. I'm sure there are differing opinions about that, too.

[Red_Wyrm]

My early tutors are for mana (lands or sol ring / mana vault)
Mid- to lategame are combopieces.
I really dont get the whole "combo hate" that some casual players have.
The game needs to end somehow.
Maybe its because they dont understand the rule interactions (they do get verry complicated sometimes).
Really dont know.
I dont mind losing vs combos
and i win with a combo most of the time

("its against the spirit of commander" is a nice sounding way of saying "i personally dont like it and you should change it")

My playgroup is very casual and we don't run combos, but I discovered a combo in my krenko deck that won the game with aggravated assault, impact tremors, krenko and Skirk prospector, which received hate from 1 particular person. Not much, just like ugh thats gay bla bla bla. I mean its a 4 card combo with 0 tutors so what are the odds it'll happen again, and I didn't even know that was a combo when assembling the deck.

I also have an infinite mindslaver combo because why not? That never gets hate because it ends the game (so IDK why the last one got hate) and my friend  runs an infinite turns combo in Ezuri, claw of Progress. If either of us gets our combo, we say good game and go on to the next game. Not a big deal. It doesn't stop us from playing magic except the 3 minutes we change decks or something. It sucks to have a built up board presence where you are about to win through triumph of the hordes or something and then you lose to an infinite combo, maybe thats why casual players hate it because it gives the game to someone who they think didn't earn it.

One dude says he won't play if someone is running an infinite combo, and my friend and I have explained why they aren't bad for the game. His response is always to get his deck out that has like 6 infinite combos. Which is a 60 card 4 copies max deck where you can run kitchen finks in an azorious deck, while we play exclusively commander. Sadly I am related to that idiot.

TLDR (since this is apparently wanted on some of my posts); I am a fairly casual player and see no problem with infinite combos. I run some myself.

But you're right, hand sculpting, looting and the best draw spells are usually enough to land on a tutor or find whatever it is that you need. My point was: you do need to find the tutor somehow, too. At that point it becomes a debate about the amount of card draw or hand filtering one should "normally run", in your words. I'm sure there are differing opinions about that, too.

Oh I see what you're saying.

I usually still include a tutor because unless you are drawing your entire deck, it is still the only way you can ensure a card will end up in your hand. I don't think you should have so much card draw that you regularly draw your entire deck unless it is deliberate. You shouldn't be casting sphinx's revelation for 15 and copying it, only to cast blue sun's zenith next turn for another 20. That is a total waste of a turn. i fyou just drew 30 cards, and didn't find what you need and need Blue sun's zenith, perhaps it's time to consider a tutor.

[Soren841]

I haven't belittled anyone, but if I think "the spirit of EDH" is bullshit I'll say it.

Quote "automatically lose at life. Known fact smh" and "Everyone who uses that excuse knows it's dumb they just don't have actual reasoning for why using tutors is bad."

Now again I will ask please?

If you use the meaningless logic of "the spirit of EDH" then I suppose I did.. darn, I guess I just assumed everyone here had actual logic

[Aetherium Slinky]

maybe thats why casual players hate it because it gives the game to someone who they think didn't earn it.

You could perhaps kindly explain to them that protecting a combo is work that deserves to be acknowledged, too. I mean you might have your combo in your hand but can't cast it because of an Aura Shards that is sitting there. Or you might be able to cast the combo and then have a single mana available for a Swan Song but sadly someone casts Acidic Slime and takes your precious combo away.

You could also have a healthy discussion about the social and interactive aspects of the game. The point is not to let anyone play anything but usually upping the amount of counters and removal results in a much more interactive game where there's room for politics and tough choices. Do I bolt the bird or should I wait for something else to come along and let them have the value from the bird? This isn't even a question you could pose if you're not carrying a single removal spell in your hand right now.

i fyou just drew 30 cards, and didn't find what you need and need Blue sun's zenith, perhaps it's time to consider a tutor

Oh, absolutely. But also let's say you have 5 cards that basically say "win the game". You don't need to draw every single one of them, one is enough and even then it's not relevant until you can actually cast it. Heavy card draw without tutors will get you the winning card pretty soon even if you don't run any tutors. As a side effect you get many other cards as well.

Don't get me wrong, though. I think tutors are important and very powerful and people should in general include tutors. For a non-combo deck it might still be possible to get away without a single tutor.

I think I actually have one. Depala, Pilot Exemplar is Dwarf-Vehicle deck and it doesn't run a single tutor because she is a tutor and draw engine by herself. I mean yeah there's a sad robot and a bauble to fetch me lands but those aren't really tutors, they're ramp cards foremost. Then there's that one exception - Dwarven Recruiter - that kinda breaks things but luckily Dwarves aren't all that powerful on their own. It does let me find niche cards like Duergar Hedge-Mage, Fairgrounds Warden or Deadeye Harpooner but I don't really need those all that often. Usually I just stack the library with Dwarves and get 1:1 card draw for each mana spent using Depala.

_{EDIT: Here's the link.}
https://deckstats.net/decks/93006/938729-podracing-at-the-mines-depala-/en

[robort]

It isn't meaningless when you come at it with an open mind that the meaning is subjective to interpretation.

But I agree if there is someone who is subjective to not believing in tutors because of the "spirit" of EDH. Then by all means I would suggest to not use any tutors at all. No fetch lands, no land tax, no farseek, no planar bridge, and so on. Especially with such a suggestion it could be just a group/house rule. Just like a group/house rule that allows the use of cards on the banlist or puts more on the banlist for the group/house rules.

I think it boils down to the power of the tutor itself. Compare demonic tutor to say kodama's reach. Most people have no qualms with kodama's reach but oh no demonic tutor is more powerful.

I would also consider graveyard recursion somewhat a type of tutoring itself. You go get a specific card from the graveyard just like demonic tutor goes and gets a specific card from the library. 2 different zones but they accomplish the goal of getting a specific card.

However again I personally don't use many tutors but I can see why others use them and have no qualms against them being used in any game.

[Red_Wyrm]

It isn't meaningless when you come at it with an open mind that the meaning is subjective to interpretation.

But I agree if there is someone who is subjective to not believing in tutors because of the "spirit" of EDH. Then by all means I would suggest to not use any tutors at all. No fetch lands, no land tax, no farseek, no planar bridge, and so on. Especially with such a suggestion it could be just a group/house rule. Just like a group/house rule that allows the use of cards on the banlist or puts more on the banlist for the group/house rules.

I think it boils down to the power of the tutor itself. Compare demonic tutor to say kodama's reach. Most people have no qualms with kodama's reach but oh no demonic tutor is more powerful.

I would also consider graveyard recursion somewhat a type of tutoring itself. You go get a specific card from the graveyard just like demonic tutor goes and gets a specific card from the library. 2 different zones but they accomplish the goal of getting a specific card.

However again I personally don't use many tutors but I can see why others use them and have no qualms against them being used in any game.

By graveyard tutors do you mean entomb or reanimate?