Sheldon's take on Infinite Combos in Commander

[Judaspriester]

Well, at least for me a T3 Doubling Season screams for removal, exactly because of situations like this. If someone plays it that early, it should be clear that the card comming in the next turn will hurt alot.
Besides that, its a lock, no infinite combo. A infinite combo usually ends the game, while a lock doesn't. Like WWolfe already mentioned, just play your commanders and other creatures and smash his face until the lock is gone. After that, continue playing like nothing happend, just with 1 player left.

Because you always have in hand the exact removal spell you need the moment you need it, right? Thinking back on it though, Narset Transcendant wasn't the best of examples; an early Jace, Unraveler of Secrets is definitely an NPE. Imagine facing a T2/3 Tangle Wire to prevent interruptions that then leads to a Jace, Unraveler of Secrets ultimate two turns later.

Sure, it's no Infinite combo, but at least the infinite combo won't drag the NPE over forever, whereas this does.

I understand what you want to say but my point is a different: EDH is a multiplayer format. If you don't have the right removal on your hand, okay, this can happen. But the chance that the whole table has no removal is (at least if all decks have a decent removal suit) way lower.
I absolutly agree with you that locks like jace + Rule of Law is unfun. But most of this hard locks doesn't pop up out of nowhere without any chance of interruption. On the other hand, take a look at the deck uploaded here. There are alot of decks with 3 or less removal cards.
If the whole table lacks removal, locks like you mentioned are damn strong, but if everyone makes sure that he has a decent removal suit in his own deck, the chances that a hard lock really hits the table isn't that high. And if it still happends then, well, take it like a infinite combo and start a new game.

[WWolfe]

There's been a lot of discussion I have seen/heard regarding how to make other types of decks as potentially lethal as combos. Some suggestions have been:

* ban the most egregious combo cards (Flash, Food chain, etc.)
* ban 2 mana and under tutors (Imperial Seal, Demonic, Vampiric, etc.)
* lower the starting life total to 30 so that chip damage becomes more important
* lower the starting life total to 30 so that aggro becomes more relevant
* lower the starting life total to 25 so that burn potentially becomes more viable
* ban the best fast mana cards (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc.)

Thoughts?

[Judaspriester]

There's been a lot of discussion I have seen/heard regarding how to make other types of decks as potentially lethal as combos. Some suggestions have been:

* ban the most egregious combo cards (Flash, Food chain, etc.)
* ban 2 mana and under tutors (Imperial Seal, Demonic, Vampiric, etc.)
* lower the starting life total to 30 so that chip damage becomes more important
* lower the starting life total to 30 so that aggro becomes more relevant
* lower the starting life total to 25 so that burn potentially becomes more viable
* ban the best fast mana cards (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc.)

Thoughts?

Hmm.. for my personal preference, I would like to see (at least some of) the real expensive fast mana cards getting banned (e.g. Mana Crypt). This would slow down the top end of the game a little and makes it a little more affordable.
Banning at least some of the most egregious combo cards also seems a viable option to me, in order to trim down some peaks.
Changing the start life could make a difference, but.. I don't know, for me it doesn't feel like this solves the problem. I would prefere to slow down the combo decks a little in stead of speeding other stuff up in order to make them on par.

[Morganator 2.0]

Banning fast mana cards wouldn't stop combos, it would just make them come out slower. If we got rid of fast mana, it would hurt the decks at the extremes; fast combo decks, as well as mono-red, mono-white, and Boros deck... and those last three don't need to be hurt. Commander is also the only format where you get to use fast mana, so I'd hate to see it go.

Getting rid of tutors is an interesting notion, but that is a huge list of cards to get banned. This would eliminate most combo decks.

Speaking from a competitive commander perspective, the card that is most likely to get banned is Flash. Protean Hulk is fine, but Flash + Protean Hulk causes trouble. Right now, almost every cEDH deck either has to stop Flash Hulk, be able to race Flash Hulk... or is Flash Hulk.

[WWolfe]

Flash is the most likely to be banned IMO. I run a Flash+Hulk combo in my Harvest Animar deck. I've hit it as early as turn 2 thanks to having Worldly Tutor in my opening hand.

Banning the two mana or less tutors would have an effect but it would make the ban list double (or more) in size.

Like Morganator said, banning fast mana would cripple some colors more than they already are when it comes to ramp and make them damn near unplayable.

The talk about changing the life total has came up before and while it could be interesting to play-test and see what effect it has, to me I just don't see where it really accomplishes anything. Perhaps  aggro may become more viable as an option in theory but does it really help anything overall if you slow down/take away the ability to play fetches, Ancient Tomb, or bring in Shocks untapped because of being at a lower starting life total?

[Soren841]

Banning Flash would be interesting. Some of my favorite brews use it so that'd make me sad but it would also put Vannifar in a MUCH better position vs the other fast combo decks..

[Joshua Bays]

They should make the person that goes last the monarch at the start of the game. Doing so would give the unlucky one a semi-consolation prize. Additionally, aggro decks would be able to steal the extra cards and help those decks compete. Lastly, it adds a new layer of fun and politics into the game.

[Judaspriester]

They should make the person that goes last the monarch at the start of the game. Doing so would give the unlucky one a semi-consolation prize. Additionally, aggro decks would be able to steal the extra cards and help those decks compete. Lastly, it adds a new layer of fun and politics into the game.

Not a that bad idea for a local playgroup to bring a little variety into the game, but I don't think this is something the community at all would be happy with.

[Red_Wyrm]

They should make the person that goes last the monarch at the start of the game. Doing so would give the unlucky one a semi-consolation prize. Additionally, aggro decks would be able to steal the extra cards and help those decks compete. Lastly, it adds a new layer of fun and politics into the game.

Not a that bad idea for a local playgroup to bring a little variety into the game, but I don't think this is something the community at all would be happy with.

I definitely agree that this is something that would happen on a playgroup basis, but I don't see what is wrong with it being implemented into the actual rules. This seems like a legitimate way to introduce the monarch mechanic into EVERY edh game, and everyone I have talked to seems to agree that it is a fun mechanic, just there aren't enough ways to get it into the game.


I am confused as to why infinite combos are being frowned upon. I understood the point made by Morganator,

Right now, almost every cEDH deck either has to stop Flash Hulk, be able to race Flash Hulk... or is Flash Hulk.

Because it seems like Flash Hulk is dominating the meta, and it isn't like we can just let it rotate out because that doesn't happen. I thought there were enough force of wills and Pact of Negations being played at cEDH tables that these decks don't actually succeed. This is all what I thought, no experience or anything, so this is a very ignorant statement, and I apologize. The first deck to combo off is usually shut down first by the opponents. So if flash hulk is the quickest, would it not be shut off first? How often does it happen that none of your opponents have a counterspell in hand or a way to stop the combo?

[Morganator 2.0]

First off, the deck is fast. Very fast. Flash Hulk can consistently happen turn 2 or 3, and turn 1 isn't uncommon. Because it's so early, this is a rare  case where someone might not have an answer. Getting one is still possible, but it forces you to change your game plan. For example, my ideal game plan with Edric is to spend the first two turns playing low-cost evasive creatures, and then start the draw engine on turn 3. When I'm up against Flash Hulk, I have to change that plan so that I always have 1 blue mana open. Even if I don't have a counterspell, I need to threaten that I do. This unfortunately slows me down by a turn or two.

Second, the Flash Hulk deck doesn't have to work around a massive hurdle if it gets stopped. If Helm of the Host gets destroyed in a Godo, Bandit Warlord deck, the Godo player is either out of the game, or has to get recursion to get the helm back. This takes time. There are other combos that the Flash Hulk deck can fall back on, quite easily.

Third, you need to understand how the combo protection works. The most common version I've seen is where they cast Flash, sacrificing Protean Hulk, and get Cephalid Illusionist, Nomads En-Kor, Hapless Researcher, and Grand Abolisher. That last creature locks out any interaction the opponents might have, so the game is already over at this point. Because of this, you have to respond while Flash is on the stack (removal is useless, it has to be a counterspell or Containment Priest). You also have to remember that the Force of Will and Pact of Negation that can stop the combo can also be used to protect the combo.

[WWolfe]

Also keep in mind, that if you Pact of Negation on t1 or t2 to try to stop someones combo, there's good odds that you won't have the mana to pay it's cost on your next upkeep and lose anyway.

God I'm living for the day I pull a turn 0 win with my Animar deck.