Sheldon's take on Infinite Combos in Commander

[WWolfe]

From his facebook page a few days ago...

A Commander game trend I noticed both at #SCGCon and in the few times I've been to my new LGS is "descent to the infinite." I'm not talking about competitive decks that want to go infinite as quickly as possible, but even more casual builds--and most of them have an eventual infinite combo of some kind. It's not "go infinite," it's "do some stuff for a while, then go infinite."

This is not a healthy trend for the format. It's probably a natural progression of things, but it's still leading in a bad direction. In Commander, it's easy to fall into the trap of spiraling upward--going infinite is the easy way to win multiplayer games. It's the efficient way, even. The problem comes from the tendency to want to do it a little earlier next time because someone beat you to it. And then earlier after that. Arms races lead to bad places.

I'm not demonizing combos here. What's of concern is that when they're the primary win condition, the format devolves. Games need to end at some point, so having a backup plan isn't all that bad. When the nuclear option becomes the first choice, then we get into trouble.

https://www.facebook.com/sheldon.menery (Can't link directly to the post, but this is the link to his FB. The post was made on June 27th.)

Thoughts?

[Soren841]

He's a dumbass.. people can play however they want and stating that combo decks are worse is stupid.

[Varatius]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion I see nothing wrong with the way he feels the game should be played I just think he shouldn't be complaining about it some people like infinite combos others don't just like some people are cool with land destruction while others aren't and so on all that matters is if you and your playgroup are on the same page when it comes to what isn't okay when you and them sit down and play and are all in agreement I have people I play with that say unless its on the banlist its fair game and others that say they don't like this or that so I don't break up decks that the people I'm with don't like because they don't like certain cards I don't mind this cuz it does allow for a variety in game to game more atleast for me

[WWolfe]

I think it's more of a problem with people not making sure their decks are on the same power level as the other people they're getting ready to play with. In a specified playgroup that's not really an issue, but when going to an LGS or event and playing with people you rarely or never play with I do think it's a good idea to discuss power level before the game. Most of my multiplayer decks I would consider 7's on a scale of 1-10, but I also have one I'd consider a 4 or 5 and one I'd consider an 8.5 to 9. Clearly it would be no fun playing my 8.5-9 against a 5 just as I wouldn't enjoy playing my 7 against a 10.  If you have a clear discussion before the game about power level then some of the things he talks about would be solved (clearly a 4 or 5 isn't a deck that can win out of nowhere with combos consistently).

I also think power creeps are going to happen in close playgroups. For the group I play with the most, I retooled my Animar to be my most competitive deck because other decks in the group creeping up to keep up with my Sidisi and a friends Marchessa, which we built to pull even with/ahead of someone's Alesha. Even before our games now we announce which decks we're going to play so that the levels are as close as possible.

The problem I guess with this would be people having different opinions on what level a particular deck is.

[Morganator 2.0]

I've tried doing that. I've tried asking people what the power level of their decks are, so I can adequately match it. What I have learnt is that most people inaccurately rate their decks. This is largely because if they are the strongest in their group, and have not faced other people, they assume that their deck is a 9 or 10. Everyone else describes their deck the same way (almost word-for-word): "You'know, it's not too powerful, but it's a well-built deck." Now I just ask people what their commanders are, and that gives me much more accurate estimates.

As for Sheldon, I once again have only a vague idea of what he is trying to say. From what I can tell, he doesn't like it when an infinite combo is the first resort. He states that this leads to people that will aim to combo faster, and make their combos more consistent, which is unhealthy because this leads to a degenerate arms race of who can combo off first.

Which would be true, if there was no interaction in Commander. Many combos can be easily stopped with well timed removal or a counterspell. Be sure to include grave-hate as well, because a smart combo player will have included ways of getting their combo back. Stax is also really good for stopping combos, which has a delicious irony to it, because Sheldon disapproves of stax as well.

I also think that infinite combos are better than non-infinite combos. When someone uses Flash Hulk or Food Chain someone usually asks "Do you win?" "If no one has any interaction, yes." This is much better than a storm deck's "Do you win?" "I don't know." And then they have to play out the next half-hour just to see if they actually win.

[Soren841]

Fortunately a well-built storm deck won't manually storm very often.

[Red_Wyrm]

I don't quite understand the problem with combos. If someone combos, okay, game over. Play a new game. You aren't stopping anyone from playing magic. Just pack the decks up and switch to new ones, or play the same or whatever, just go on to the next game. If you think it is gay, that isn't really a good reason why. You can have your gripe with them, and you can refuse to play if you know someone is playing them, but don't bitch and complain that someone won with the combo.

Personally, as long as I am allowed to play the game, I don't care. I don't like Iona, and cards like her, stax effects I can deal with because that affects everyone equally, for the most part, and I can build my mono green deck around winter orb, (even if I am not running stax pieces) but I can't build around Iona. I even put up with land destruction because it isn't every game.

I don't see how it is detrimental for the format to go through this process of more and more combos, if you don't like combos, find friends who don't like combos, and play with them. I do not like Iona. Everyone else in my playgroup is cool with the card, since no one else runs mono colored decks (and it is meant to target me every. Damn. Time.) So I put up with the card. So if you can't or don't want to find people to play comboless with, then suck it up. I feel an issue like this, though, needs to be solved on a playgroup by playgroup basis. If you are going to an LGS or GP Magic Fest, you have to deal with it because it is a part of the game. Although I think this is what he doesn't like. That it is such a potent part of the game. There are ways to stop combo decks. The most important thing is you have to know what the combo pieces are, so you don't choose to pass turn with a dreadbore in hand, not killing your opponent's deadeye navigator and he could possible have palinchron in his hand. Or know how to stop it. Like responding to the soulbond trigger. Ultimately you are going to have to include  combo hate, which is just something about the format, if you are going to a magic fest or similar event.

Well that's my two cents. Haha who am I kidding? My thoughts aren't worth that much.

[Spinsane]

If my opponent can ultimate Narset Transcendent on turn 4 [T1 land+dork, T2 land+dork/rock, T3 land+Doubling Season, T4 Narset], locking the game completely for almost anyone but him/her, how is any kind of infinite combo that can come up on T4 any worse?

[WWolfe]

If my opponent can ultimate Narset Transcendent on turn 4 [T1 land+dork, T2 land+dork/rock, T3 land+Doubling Season, T4 Narset], locking the game completely for almost anyone but him/her, how is any kind of infinite combo that can come up on T4 any worse?

I actually faced this the other day...it was loads of fun, for 3 turns until we all attacked him each turn and killed him.

[Judaspriester]

If my opponent can ultimate Narset Transcendent on turn 4 [T1 land+dork, T2 land+dork/rock, T3 land+Doubling Season, T4 Narset], locking the game completely for almost anyone but him/her, how is any kind of infinite combo that can come up on T4 any worse?

Well, at least for me a T3 Doubling Season screams for removal, exactly because of situations like this. If someone plays it that early, it should be clear that the card comming in the next turn will hurt alot.
Besides that, its a lock, no infinite combo. A infinite combo usually ends the game, while a lock doesn't. Like WWolfe already mentioned, just play your commanders and other creatures and smash his face until the lock is gone. After that, continue playing like nothing happend, just with 1 player left.

[WWolfe]

https://twitter.com/SheldonMenery/status/1146299075815464962

Extremely good meeting Commander RC + CAG meeting tonight.  Full announcement and updated philosophy document coming on Monday.  #mtgcmdr #edh

[Varatius]

If my opponent can ultimate Narset Transcendent on turn 4 [T1 land+dork, T2 land+dork/rock, T3 land+Doubling Season, T4 Narset], locking the game completely for almost anyone but him/her, how is any kind of infinite combo that can come up on T4 any worse?

Well, at least for me a T3 Doubling Season screams for removal, exactly because of situations like this. If someone plays it that early, it should be clear that the card comming in the next turn will hurt alot.
Besides that, its a lock, no infinite combo. A infinite combo usually ends the game, while a lock doesn't. Like WWolfe already mentioned, just play your commanders and other creatures and smash his face until the lock is gone. After that, continue playing like nothing happend, just with 1 player left.

But locks can be so frustrating for others I can't tell you how many times I managed to get jace,  unraveler of secrets emblem out with rule of law just to slow grind the game by doing 1 or 2 damage to each player 90% of the time I do this everyone conceded shower tbf the 3 games I did this with the higher level play group even though they couldn't do anything they let me grind the game where as my lower leveled playgroup just conceded although I've told them multiple times they need to deal with the planeswalkers

[Shredwick]

https://twitter.com/SheldonMenery/status/1146299075815464962

Extremely good meeting Commander RC + CAG meeting tonight.  Full announcement and updated philosophy document coming on Monday.  #mtgcmdr #edh

C20?

[Spinsane]

Well, at least for me a T3 Doubling Season screams for removal, exactly because of situations like this. If someone plays it that early, it should be clear that the card comming in the next turn will hurt alot.
Besides that, its a lock, no infinite combo. A infinite combo usually ends the game, while a lock doesn't. Like WWolfe already mentioned, just play your commanders and other creatures and smash his face until the lock is gone. After that, continue playing like nothing happend, just with 1 player left.

Because you always have in hand the exact removal spell you need the moment you need it, right? Thinking back on it though, Narset Transcendant wasn't the best of examples; an early Jace, Unraveler of Secrets is definitely an NPE. Imagine facing a T2/3 Tangle Wire to prevent interruptions that then leads to a Jace, Unraveler of Secrets ultimate two turns later.

Sure, it's no Infinite combo, but at least the infinite combo won't drag the NPE over forever, whereas this does.

[WWolfe]

https://twitter.com/SheldonMenery/status/1146299075815464962

Extremely good meeting Commander RC + CAG meeting tonight.  Full announcement and updated philosophy document coming on Monday.  #mtgcmdr #edh

C20?

The RC won't be the ones making any announcements about C20 (it would actually be C19 that comes out this year). They control the ban list and rules for the format, they have nothing to do with R&D "officially".