Beating Shuffle Hulk

[Morganator 2.0]

Maybe someone can help me with this problem.

The Paradox Engine ban is really messing with me. Initially my plan for dealing with the Shuffle Hulk combo (explained below) was to play some stax piece or strategic removal to slow down the Shuffle Hulk deck by a turn or two, and then get Paradox Engine so I could combo off. Because the Shuffle Hulk deck would eventually find a way around the stax, I had to combo soon after. This is no longer a tactic that works.

So let's see if anyone has some good suggestions. A way to really hit this combo where it hurts, so when they try to combo, they lose the game instead of win.

The Combo

The combo starts when Protean Hulk dies. Usually from Flash, but not always. This can consistently happen around turn 2 or 3. When Protean Hulk dies, the player searches for Cephalid Illusionist, Nomads En-Kor, Viscera Seer, and Blood Artist. They use the ability of Nomads En-Kor on Cephalid Illusionist, and start milling out their own deck. Eventually, Narcomoeba gets milled, and enters the battlefield. Blood Artist drains 1. Narcomoeba gets sacrificed to Viscera Seer, and then the self-mill continues until they hit Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. The entire graveyard gets shuffled, and the loop continues. Each time Narcomoeba comes out, someone loses one life, so eventually, the game is over. In the event that Kozilek gets milled before Narcomoeba, the graveyard gets shuffled anyway.

Combo Protection

This combo is also really good at protecting itself. First, the whole thing operates at instant speed. So a lot of the time, if somebody responds to it, the solution is to just keep milling away. Second, because blue is one of the four colors used for this combo, Pact of Negation, Dispel, Swan Song, and Force of Will can be used to protect the combo turn, as well as Silence. Third, and this is the one that is really messing me up, Memory's Journey. For one green, this card can put Kozilek or any other combo pieces back into the deck... also at instant speed.

Solution?
So stopping Flash is the obvious way of preventing this combo, but I would rather stop it half-way. Preferably after a bunch of cards have been milled, I do... something... that puts them at a disadvantage so they lose the game instead of win the game.

Any ideas?

[Soren841]

You have to be fast. Very quickly playing a stax piece to shut them down, countering Flash, or winning faster than them. This is why Flash should be banned.

[Red_Wyrm]

What about using praetor's grasp for Narcomoeba?

[Morganator 2.0]

Yeah, and that was my original plan. Even simple stax pieces can delay the deck (Containment Priest is my personal favorite) but it will find a way around given enough time. Even with something like Extract, the deck runs Riftsweeper and Pull from Eternity.

What I really want is some way to interact with the combo. Flash has resolved, Protean Hulk died, the four combo creatures are on the field. How do I stop it then?

My first thought was to Trickbind Nomads En-Kor, but then they would just win on the upkeep of the next turn. Then I thought about using Stifle on Kozilek's shuffle trigger, but then they would just keep milling until they find Memory's Journey. In either case, I should have just countered the Protean Hulk trigger, but then I still have to worry about Necromancy in a later turn.

Now I'm thinking that Sudden Shock might be the solution. Use it on Cephalid Illusionist (Can't be Nomads En-Kor, the damage would just get re-directed) in response to the shuffle trigger.

[Red_Wyrm]

Yeah, and that was my original plan. Even simple stax pieces can delay the deck (Containment Priest is my personal favorite) but it will find a way around given enough time. Even with something like Extract, the deck runs Riftsweeper and Pull from Eternity.

What I really want is some way to interact with the combo. Flash has resolved, Protean Hulk died, the four combo creatures are on the field. How do I stop it then?

My first thought was to Trickbind Nomads En-Kor, but then they would just win on the upkeep of the next turn. Then I thought about using Stifle on Kozilek's shuffle trigger, but then they would just keep milling until they find Memory's Journey. In either case, I should have just countered the Protean Hulk trigger, but then I still have to worry about Necromancy in a later turn.

Now I'm thinking that Sudden Shock might be the solution. Use it on Cephalid Illusionist (Can't be Nomads En-Kor, the damage would just get re-directed) in response to the shuffle trigger.

Perhaps Trickbind, but that is just a stifle that can't be countered. It still has the same problems as stifle. In the same respect as Sudden Shock, there is Sudden Death, and Sudden Spoiling, but I don't thin sudden spoiling would do much but delay it, but don't these all really just delay it, to an extent?

It is all instant speed, so they could just respond to Alexi's Cloak, but I think if you could give the Cephalid Illusionist shroud so he can't target it, that would solve everything.

[Morganator 2.0]

So Sudden Spoiling really wouldn't help, unfortunately. They just pass the turn and then do their combo on the next players upkeep. Sudden Death is an option similar the Sudden Shock, but the difference of one mana is huge when we're talking about a potential turn 2 combo.

Alexi's Cloak is interesting. You would have to cast it in response to Kozilek hitting the graveyard, because at any other time they would just mill until they hit Kozilek, and then continue the combo, with Alexi's Cloak never coming off the stack. But then the issue is Memory's Journey. If they have one green open, then in response to Alexi's Cloak, they put Kozilek back in the graveyard, and then just keep milling.

Although, all this talk about split second makes me think Extirpate might work. The timing of this card would have to be crazy precise though. You'd have to wait until Pull from Eternity and Riftsweeper are both in the graveyard, and while Kozilek's shuffle is on the stack.

[bigdogdch]

How about stopping the combo before it gets started.
You’d need cards that would exile cards from opponents hand or library so they don’t enter the graveyard. Also How about anything that gives you hexproof
Teyo, the Shieldmage
Shalai, Voice of Plenty
Sigarda, Heron's Grace
And if you need these at instant speed Thran Temporal Gateway can get any of the 3 in play
Or Shroud like
Guilted Light
True Believer
Ivory Mask

Or something that will prevent damage from a source until end of turn.

Just my $.02

[Morganator 2.0]

A lot of these options simply aren't viable because of their mana cost. You have to remember that this combo consistently happens on turn 2 or 3, so you need to have an answer ready by then... Something Thran Temporal Gateway simply can't do.

True Believer and Aegis of the Gods might be the way to go. The other two people at the table would lose the game, but I would be fine. My only worry with them is that they don't have any use outside of stopping Shuffle Hulk.

And the prevent damage until end of turn won't work. The whole combo is at instant speed, so it will just continue on the upkeep of the next turn.

[Judaspriester]

Tormod's Crypt? Mana wouldn't be an issue here and it can also be used against other graveyard combos.
Sure, Riftsweeper and Pull from Eternity would still be an issue then, but first of all, he needs to get hands on those cards which means a future delay, the other players could use.

[Soren841]

They have responses to grave hate. You have to be proactive bc it's an extremely resilient combo

[Judaspriester]

They have responses to grave hate. You have to be proactive bc it's an extremely resilient combo

The Idea behind Tormods was, that its an artifact for 0 that can be sacrificed on instant speed. This means Tormods can be played Turn 1 without additional effort and if they don't counter it then, they need removal or something like stifle in order to stop the grave hate. I don't want to say this is the ultimate piece against the combo, but I think it may help and isn't useless outsight fighting that combo.
Besides that, I'm no cEDH player, so i usually don't have to deal with extrem resilient combos.

Leyline of the Void would also work, but only if its on the start hand. Otherwise it would be to slow.. Hmm.. Rest in Peace? It would at least fit manawise and redirects the mill into exile.

[Morganator 2.0]

Rest in Peace is part of the current package, but like any stax piece, the Shuffle Hulk deck will eventually find a way to remove or navigate around it, which is why Paradox Engine was so important. Let me give a break down of how a typical game went:

Turn 1: Mana ramp
Turn 2: stax effect that delays Shuffle Hulk
Turn 3: play Captain Sisay
Turn 4: win with Paradox Engine

There were protection spells like Apostle's Blessing that could protect the stax piece if Shuffle Hulk tried to remove it. Before I only needed to delay them by two turns, now it's more than that.

I'm not looking for something specific to Captain Sisay, just something that causes the combo player to be at such a heavy disadvantage that they lose instead of win. Kinda like using Sudden Shock on Laboratory Maniac right before they are about to draw from an empty deck; they lose the game instead of win.

[Judaspriester]

Hmm.. what about Psychic Surgery? with every iteration you're able to exile one of the top 2 cards of the library. besides that it would allow you to negate every one mana tutor.
It's very luck dependant but there is a chance that you hit one of his combo pieces. this would delay the combo until he gets them back (again, one mana tutors can't help him here) and if he doesn't remove the Surgery, he risks running into the same problem again.

/edit: if I think about this.. I'm not got enough at math to calculate the chance without a big effort, but if we assume that you have 40 life, he needs 40 iterations to take you out. this would mean you have 40 times the chance of 2/<cards in library> while the number of cards drops by one with every iteration. Since one success is enough to interrupt the combo I think the chances shouldn't be that bad, even if it isn't secure.

The problem is, unless the chance is very high (like 95%+) you would usually have to play the whole thing to see it works or not.

Hmm.. the more I think about this the more I get the feeling that this doesn't work good enough. It depends much on the effective chance for a interrupt.

[Soren841]

They can combo in response to the triggers. It's an instant speed combo. This is why Tormod's Crypt is irrelevant. You need static effects

[Morganator 2.0]

It seems like the two opportune moments to respond are when either Flash/Protean Hulk's death trigger are on the stack, or when Kozilek is about to reshuffle the deck. I would really like to respond at that moment, but Memory's Journey messes with that.