cEDH ban speculations

[Red_Wyrm]

Wow okay. I was gone for like a day and so much happened.
Poor Soren. I usually enjoy reading what he has to say, but he can be aggressive.

Story time!!!!!!!!

So I have a Lord Windgrace deck. It sucks balls, but it doesnt do anything really oppressive. It just plays with lands and gets incremental value out of them. Well long ago, I ran death cloud in the deck because it could essentially be a one sided armageddon. My lands deck could usually recover faster than everyone else from the sacing of lands. Well that card was not well liked. It quite literally got hated out of my deck. It didnt go this far, but it could've if I left it in the deck, ignoring my playgroup. They could've stopped inviting me had I refused to remove the card. So either the card or the player would get hated out of the playgroup.  And I get it, it is no fun watching me take another 4 or 5 rounds to rebuild a board and finally be able to win while everyone else draws, maybe plays a land and passes.

Okay so my point is, why dont we hate Flash out? If someone is running flash hulk, they cannot sit in your pod. If they wanna build a deck that ramps to 7 mana to cast protean hulk and then sacrifice it to something like culling the weak to start it, let them, just don't play with flash.

[Soren841]

Well everyone here likes to quote the "spirit of the format" so I suppose I'll do it too hating out a card or strategy just because it's better than yours is 100% completely against the spirit of everything competitive. If it's oppressive ban it. If you refuse to play against certain cards or strategies you aren't playing cEDH. Same thing in ANY format.

[CleanBelwas]

Well everyone here likes to quote the "spirit of the format" so I suppose I'll do it too hating out a card or strategy just because it's better than yours is 100% completely against the spirit of everything competitive. If it's oppressive ban it. If you refuse to play against certain cards or strategies you aren't playing cEDH. Same thing in ANY format.

I agree with this sentiment when it comes to competitive play, but the point is that the "spirit of the format" isn't that same as the "spirit of competitive play".

EDH is the format, cEDH is a niche bastardisation of that format that some people choose to play. As many people have said, yourself included, separating the two formats isn't what most of the community want. The guys in charge want EDH to remain casual. If people then choose to play that format in a much more competitive way, that is their choice, but if ban lists aren't reflective of their way of playing, that's just something they will have to accept or something that they will have to self police. If the cEDH community is calling for a ban, they have it within themselves to choose to not play it. This covers individual play groups as well as the wider community as a whole.

When it comes to EDH, and therefore cEDH, the ban list is there to stop games stagnating and not being fun. The RC have made this very clear, and said that people are welcome to govern themselves if they disagree with the list.

Personally I see no reason why this should not be sufficient. If the cEDH community want flash banned, ban it "in house". If some of that community are fine with it and others aren't, play with people who are like minded.

[Soren841]

Yes the spirit of competition, which can and does apply to ANY format, EDH included. It's no more of a bastardization than competitive Legacy. Nobody can dictate how somebody plays a format, and the RC has a huge flaw in their mindset if they continue to try and control how we play EDH. There are no casual or competitive fornats. They're just formats,  period. We choose how we play them.

[CleanBelwas]

Yes the spirit of competition, which can and does apply to ANY format, EDH included. It's no more of a bastardization than competitive Legacy. Nobody can dictate how somebody plays a format, and the RC has a huge flaw in their mindset if they continue to try and control how we play EDH. There are no casual or competitive fornats. They're just formats,  period. We choose how we play them.

You appear to have missed my point entirely. Obviously people can choose how to play each formats within their own circles. Any format can be played casually or competitively, but that's not just what we are talking about here.

We're talking about bans and restrictions, and whether or not certain cards should appear on that list. This affects the rules and regulations of the game, and so each decision has to be with an end goal in mind or a to maintain a certain dynamic. In the case of EDH, the competitive side of the format is not the focus, which is unique among MTG formats. Having the focus be on casual play is a choice they have made, and no matter how much you disagree with it, it's their format and their decision to make.

They have offered a suitable work around which is self policing. That's more than they had to do. They could easily have said "EDH is casual. These degenerate combos don't effect the casuals so we're going to ignore them" but they built the format with a philosophy that allows the flexibility for people to choose how they want to play.

The RC have made their vision for the format very clear and their willingness to stick with to their guns is not a bad thing. It is not a "huge flaw in their mindset" and they are not trying to "control how we play EDH". Literally the opposite is true. They are saying that everyone is welcome to play how they want, but as the developers of the format, they will continue to push the format in the direction they want to take it. It's their creation and they have the artistic liberty to do this.

If a band you liked made an album and they took their music in a direction that wasn't to your taste, you wouldn't tell them to change it. How they handle their creation is up to them, and it's the same here. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but equally you don't have to consume it if you don't like it.

Of course, from a business perspective, they would do well to listen to their customers, but cEDH is a relatively small part of what is MTG's fastest growing and arguably most popular format. They have done just fine aiming at the casuals, so their decision to continue to do so is no real surprise.

[Soren841]

Self policing is for casual players, it is not part of a competitive ruleset. Ban based on comp, casual can police themselves. It's easy logic. The RC most certainly IS trying to control how we play the game. Look at their bannings, their logic, or even just look at Sheldon. It's not hard to see that they don't like cEDH and they believe in "casual formats."

[CleanBelwas]

Self policing is for casual players, it is not part of a competitive ruleset. Ban based on comp, casual can police themselves. It's easy logic.

It's easy logic for a competitive format, but EDH isn't.

The RC most certainly IS trying to control how we play the game. Look at their bannings, their logic, or even just look at Sheldon.

Personally, I disagree on this point. I think their willingness to allow self policing across the entire format shows that this is not the case. Ultimately, these guys created the format and should not be expected to change their vision of it to please others.

It's not hard to see that they don't like cEDH and they believe in "casual formats."

But what's wrong with that? Pretty much every other format in MTG has a competitive side. EDH came about with some friends who wanted to play it casually because they liked playing with all their old cards and hanging out for an evening. It gained popularity, but they wanted to keep their original view of their format the way they intended.

It got so much attention that it got official support. People started playing it hyper competitively and cEDH was born. In response to this they said "that's not really how we imagined it, but if that's how you want to do it, you go nuts", but they kept their rules and bans in line with their original vision for the format.

There is no competitive EDH scene in the same way there is for modern or standard or legacy. There are no global championships with big prizes and sanctioned play (outside of what independents decide to organise for themselves). You can't earn pro points for playing commander. No matter how competitively you play it with your peers, it is not a competitive format in the same way other formats are. You can tune your deck to the nines, but it doesn't mean anything, and probably never will.

So, with all of that, what is wrong with self policing at the competitive level?

[Soren841]

Self policing is for casual players, it is not part of a competitive ruleset. Ban based on comp, casual can police themselves. It's easy logic.

It's easy logic for a competitive format, but EDH isn't.

I feel like a broken record.. there are no competitive formats just like there are no casual formats. They're just formats, period, to be played HOWEVER WE WANT

The RC most certainly IS trying to control how we play the game. Look at their bannings, their logic, or even just look at Sheldon.


Personally, I disagree on this point. I think their willingness to allow self policing across the entire format shows that this is not the case. Ultimately, these guys created the format and should not be expected to change their vision of it to please others.

No one gives a fuck about their vision, they're not in my playgroup. You don't ban cards based on what you WANT. You ban them for being oppressive. If they want more cards banned because they don't LIKE them, they can use rule 0. They're a casual playgroup.

It's not hard to see that they don't like cEDH and they believe in "casual formats."


But what's wrong with that? Pretty much every other format in MTG has a competitive side. EDH came about with some friends who wanted to play it casually because they liked playing with all their old cards and hanging out for an evening. It gained popularity, but they wanted to keep their original view of their format the way they intended.

And you're able to play it casually, just like you can play ANY format casually. But the ONLY way to create a proper banlist is through competitive. You can tell me I'm wrong but the existence of this thread already proves me right.


The quotes are not happy with me. rip formatting

[CleanBelwas]

"there are no competitive formats just like there are no casual formats"

When the creators of the game are sanctioning organised competitive play with significant prize money, but this only extends to certain formats, I would argue that there absolutely is a difference between the competitiveness of formats.

"No one gives a fuck about their vision"

They give a fuck about their vision, and it's their decision to make.

"You ban them for being oppressive"

They are banning based on what's oppressive, the difference is, how they are defining oppression is different to how you would. Neither is wrong, it's just a different stance on the same point.

"But the ONLY way to create a proper banlist is through competitive"

This is demonstrably not true. EDH isn't competitive, but it has a ban list. It might not be one you personally agree with or support, but it exists.

"You can tell me I'm wrong but the existence of this thread already proves me right."

In what way does this thread "prove" you right?

I'm not about to tell you that you are wrong. It's your opinion, it can't be wrong or right.

This thread consists of many people who enjoy the same hobby, discussing one aspect of that hobby and it's pros and cons. There have been many different opinions expressed, but ultimately they are just that; opinions.

No one has been wrong or right. My opinion on the matter is different to yours, but it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. You are entitled to yours as much as I am mine.

[Soren841]

Their banlist is shit that's how it proves me right. And I know they give a fuck about their vision. That's why we have rule 0, because nobody else does. A format doesn't need money or a WOTC sanctioned format to be competitive. They don't control the playerbase.

People ARE right and wrong. You're wrong, and so is the RC. That's why so many people are fed up with their banlist.

[CleanBelwas]

Haha OK dude. Whatever you say.

[WizardSpartan]

To try to misdirect the convo before people get any more heated:

Anybody have any cards beside Flash that deserve a ban?

In particular, I know a couple people who want a Craterhoof Behemoth ban, but I think it has too many requirements to fulfill to win the game.

What are the criteria for banning cards according to you people?
For me, it has to create a lot of outcry from casual players; it has to make gameplay uniform, boring, uninteresting, lock people out of the game, etc.

[Soren841]

Pretty much just Flash. My main issue with the banlist is actually that most of it should be unbanned.

[Spinsane]

I have to say, I do agree with Soren.

What's the point of the banlist if they don't ban cards that are oppressive? "Oh, if you don't like Flash just ban it in your playgroup." Why is that stance not applicable to every other card on the banlist? Why did THEY have to ban Paradox Engine* if all they had to do was wave their hand and declare that groups who don't like the card can just agree not to play it?

* [Can be replaced with any other card on the banlist...]

[Soren841]

Exactly, it just makes no sense. Ban for competitive, and Rule 0 for casual makes much more sense and leaves everybody happy.