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Author Topic: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent  (Read 2820 times)

Mc.V

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2020, 04:29:31 pm »
In my oppinion banning this would be kinda stupid. At the first view it seems completly broken and like a staple that everyone likes to play, but thats not true. To do realy cracy things with this lotus, u have to play a commander that hasnt that many colours and does things on his one(for a sisay deck per example it wouldnt be that nice to ramp her out on turn 1 but activating her on turn 5). So its not gona be 87 +commander + sol ring+ lotus, becouse only a few commanders can realy make this artifact broken. Another thing we should remember is that drawing a lotus later in the game is not even approximately that great than drawing a sol ring.
As a conclusion I gues that this new card can be busted in certain cases like lots of other new cards to, but It will never be a staple like sol ring. And mabey we should just appreciate wizzards trying to find ways to reprint reserved list cards.

Marshstepper78

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2020, 08:48:09 pm »
This card is a trap. I think it's going to be a cEDH staple in most top decks, but honestly, this is average at best in most casual/regular deck. Make no mistake, this card was created to sell Commander Legends.

You have it in your opening hand and cast your commander real fast, you become enemy number one at the average table. Your commander then gets removed early and you have to wait a while until you can recast it. Way to durdle.

Jeweled Lotus is garbage in Glissa the Traitor. She needs to be out so you can recur it, and she needs to be dead for you to use it. Seems a bit silly.

Personally, I will put one in my Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion deck as it is my main 1v1 pandemic Commander deck. The sooner Neheb hits the table, the sooner he can attack and end the game. Jeweled Lotus in this deck seems like a no-brainer. For similar reasons, I will probably put one in my Talrand, Sky Summoner deck. The sooner he is out, the sooner I start amassing an army of drakes. I don't think it's impactful enough in my other decks and it easily gets outclassed by Sol Ring or Mana Crypt.

If I were inclined to put my old Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain deck back together, it would go in there as well. Power out Jhoira early or draw later; Jeweled Lotus is not a wasted card either way.

Everyone forgot about Opposition Agent already.

Akira Foxmind

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2020, 09:45:06 pm »
Jeweled Lotus is garbage in Glissa the Traitor. She needs to be out so you can recur it, and she needs to be dead for you to use it. Seems a bit silly.


I would call it a small insurance if Glissa catches a removal.
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twotontimmy

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2020, 07:49:38 am »
"You play it and become enemy number one".

Well I'm not sure I completely agree with that. At least not in my playgroups. Below is my perspective:

Using binomial coefficients, there's already a 30% chance for at least one person in a pod of 4 to pull a sol ring in their opening hand after the draw. There is then a higher chance if people start mulling.

Pulling the turn 1 sol ring, or turn 1 lotus, is not going to be far off. It means that there's a 50% chance for someone to pull one of the ideal fast mana sources, provided they are running the right commander. I heard from a youtube video that it is compatible with around 300 commanders. Again, mulligans increase this chance. It's going to be commonplace as fuck to just have a fast commander start. I feel that people will probably just start ignoring other players with fast mana starts. They already do in my case with just sol rings and basic ramp.

Now let's talk about these mulligans: the mulligans are based on playstyle of groups and metas, but what I've always noticed is that people will mulligan for some form of ramp with 2-3 land, or 1cmc removal with 2-3 land. This is so that they can respond to fast plays, or be the fast plays. It does not always happen, and they run a considerable risk for disadvantage doing it, but if they notice a commander they don't want to see make a fast start (krenko, for instance), they may try it. Also, my playgroups allow 1 free mulligan, this was in response to serious mana screwing issues. However, it has become a tool to win and I hate it.

We must also consider if not everyone is running enough removal and no one mulls, which can certainly happen (say there's only 1 quick spot removal spells in everyone's decks, like swords or path), then there is likely no answer for this high chance of running away to become mayor of value town turns 1-4. There is only a 32% chance someone would draw that 1 cmc spot removal within that time frame. If players were to load up on lots of 1 cmc removal (pongify, swords, path, etc...) There could be upwards of a 86% chance to respond to it within that time frame. Though, you really don't want to have that much 1 cmc removal, as it would probably take a away from potentially important draws that could give you more value for your draw. At a certain point, you have to play the deck you made.

What I'm getting at is that is that I think people, at least in my groups, are either A) going to load up on more removal than ever before, B) make their decks only control/reactive-based, or C) just ignore it and let people run away with high value plays because multiple players are probably playing lotuses and sol rings on turn 1. It's most likely C because we already largely ignore sol ring starts. The only time I ever see an enemy at a table is when they are trying to combo off or do big shit you know they're about to win with (fucking anjie, man).

However, my groups may silently agree not to run it, as we do not run the other fast mana rocks or most of the reserved list. I won't, because it would be way out of scale for my group. However, I think it is unlikely that I will get targeted for this card, especially over a sol ring, which stays around forever.

tl;dr If you are in groups running the fast mana rocks, I do not think this weird nonsense I said applies to your concerns. Lotus is benign in high-power circles, but, like the other fast rocks, probably warping in mid-low power level circles. No it doesn't need to be banned imo

« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 08:09:44 am by twotontimmy »
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WWolfe

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2020, 03:51:10 pm »
The only deck I run that would benefit from it (keep in mind, most of my decks are multicolored) is Purphoros, God of the Forge. Enabling me to get him out turn 1 could be a huge difference in the game. Possibly as much as 4-8 points of damage combined between turns 2 and 3, as well as an additional 2-6 damage on turn 4 (the turn I'm usually tapping out to cast Purphoros) to each player, so a difference of 6-14 damage on those three turns. With all that said, it's still possible to get him out t2 or t3 as the deck is constructed with a God or near God hand. I highly doubt I spend $130 for it.

For my other decks, it does very little. Skullbriar always hits t2 anyway and getting it out a turn early would make a difference but not a huge one. It wouldn't enable a t1 play of Sidisi unless I got a God hand and there's already ways I can get him out t2 given the right draw. It helps get out GAA earlier which could be helpful but would make people target me sooner so it's a double-edged sword. It does nothing for Karador as she's hardly cast anyway and pretty much nothing for my Sliver deck.

It takes the right 1-2 colored deck to take advantage of it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 04:27:37 pm by WWolfe »
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PickleLover

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2020, 03:57:37 pm »
i mean theres a good chance that the card will go down in price a lot, so maybe if you wait you dont need to spend $130
– PickleLover

Marshstepper78

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2020, 08:49:31 pm »
The price should go down unless there's some sort of Jumpstart-esque distribution nonsense. That would be horrible.

I can almost see it. Stores get allocations "because of the pandemic" and it takes a while for the supply to get out there. 1 supplemental product is released. 2 more Secret Lairs are announced, with a shipping backlog going back 4 Secret Lairs. The next Standard-legal expansion comes out as Commander Legends supply finally stabilises and everyone forgot about it. Sales first, distribution/shipping logistics can wait.

It's insane. Zendikar Rising has been out for what, a month, and now all we talk about is Commander Legends. This is really silly.

robort

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2020, 11:35:32 pm »
This card is definitely nuts. It isn't ban worthy nuts though. There are going to be games where a commander can come out on turn 1 or turn 2. Even my Etali deck can use this. I can at most get Etali out on turn 3 but that is with a great opening hand but a turn 2 Etali with haste would be bonkers. But that is just it the lotus is part of the 99 so there will be games that I won't get the lotus, I will get it later in the game, or I will get it and won't need it. It is a powerful card but not well over 100.00 plus dollars powerful. However buying a booster box at 125.00 if I am right about the price gives me a chance to pull one. I definitely like what this card does but will I be disappointed if I don't get one? No but will I also be mad if I see one hit the table from my opponents? No ... It is a very good card with a very high price point that is overrated by the population at the moment and that is about it
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PickleLover

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Re: EMERGENCY MEETING: Black Lotus Adjacent
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2020, 11:44:47 pm »
The price should go down unless there's some sort of Jumpstart-esque distribution nonsense. That would be horrible.

I can almost see it. Stores get allocations "because of the pandemic" and it takes a while for the supply to get out there. 1 supplemental product is released. 2 more Secret Lairs are announced, with a shipping backlog going back 4 Secret Lairs. The next Standard-legal expansion comes out as Commander Legends supply finally stabilises and everyone forgot about it. Sales first, distribution/shipping logistics can wait.

It's insane. Zendikar Rising has been out for what, a month, and now all we talk about is Commander Legends. This is really silly.

well personally, i cant wait for strixhaven

its a wizard-themed set, surely there'll be some super fun cards
– PickleLover