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Author Topic: How to make a better magic player  (Read 1216 times)

Rose the Budget Queen

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How to make a better magic player
« on: July 06, 2023, 09:26:52 am »
So, let me start by saying that I have been playing magic since roughly 2000-2001, so when I say I have quite a bit of experience playing MTG, hopefully this helps put that in perspective. I am, however, new to commander, and have only been playing for a couple of years. So, when my own knowledge of the game fails me, I feel its best to turn to others who can help.

My wife has been playing Magic as long as I have been playing commander, as she was the one who got me back into the game and into the EDH format. She is still learning a lot of the rules, and has yet to really build a deck on her own. All of the decks she owns were originally built by someone else, but she has modified them to some extent.
In our usual playgroup, due to her lack of experience in the game, she keeps losing over and over. I do try to help her out and even go as far as to sabotage myself and the other players during the game in order to help her win, but lately she's been getting discouraged by all the losses and hasn't been having fun. I really don't want her to stop playing, and I really want her to play because she wants to play, not just because I enjoy it and need a 3rd/4th player.

I don't know how to help her learn how to play better so that she doesn't lose over and over again. Like, I'm sure the reason she doesn't win as often has nothing to do with her decks, as the person building them has even more experience with MTG than I do... so I'm thinking it has to do with a lack of knowledge of strategy in the game. My wife has never been one for strategic games (although she is amazing at FPS games) so I really don't know what approach to take in teaching her to play better without making her feel stupid.

I'm so sorry for typing out an entire novel  :o

TL;DR My wife sucks at magic and I want to know the best way to teach her to play better.

Akira Foxmind

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2023, 09:49:34 am »
In general it should be pretty hard to become good in a game, if you are not suited for it (that's what your explanation sounds like).
Becoming good in chess, without the ability to calculate several turns in advance is nearly impossible.

But to not abandon your wife with this reasoning, how about you play some 1on1 matches against her and try to pinpoint her exact problems. If it's 'only' the lack of ruling knowledge that makes her lose it really would be a question of learning / practicing.
If you feel she just don't know which cards are best to play in each situation, meaning she lacks strategic ability, you could try and build that up. Maybe EDH is a little to overwhelming regarding rules und stuff you have to consider (knowing that all to well for myself). You could try normal 60-card kitchentable decks or 2hg which should be a little easier to get into, but would help to gain experience and learn about the game itself.
If it has to be singleton decks you could go down to brawl decks (altering the rules for deckbuilding to have a larger cardpool in your group shouldn't be a problem) which aren't as escalating as EDH decks.

That would at least be what I would try in your situation. Maybe there are others here, who can give you more input about that.

Good luck, solving this issue!
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MayhemDelivery

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2023, 10:25:59 am »
What kind of decks does your wife play? Maybe she just hasn't found her style yet?
Personally, I'm not a big strategist either, and my head spins regularly when my friends play their complicated combo decks.
I try to keep it simple at least for me by playing for example stompy creatures in mono green, easy boros equipments,
or voltron style with lifegain and a bit of stax (generally midrange style so I don't get overwhelmed too fast).

paulusdeboself

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2023, 10:49:50 am »
Another way to learn the game is playing

 Arena online. You can play a diversity of formats, but the main thing is that you can practise your timing very well, the game simply don't let you play things you aren't allowed to. And it's a way to play multiple games fast.

I know it can be hard to get a gew decks to play on the ladder, but events with 'precons' or jumpstart are easy to start with.

And another way to get to know is playing 1vs1 as suggested by others. Playing precons (preferably frontera the same set) against each other can help levelling the decks against each other and it helps finding a deck/playstyle that suits your wife.

ApothecaryGeist

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2023, 12:57:40 pm »
"I like Magic, but I am not having a good experience with Commander."  I could expand on this topic for quite some time.  As it mirrors my own journey with Magic, which began with Revised.  And with Commander, which began in 2011.  I'll leave you with this short version.  Feel free to follow up. 


I have seen this several times throughout the years.  It usually boils down to a couple of factors.


The first is game play.  A typical game of Commander does not play out like a typical game of Sealed Deck at a prerelease.  You spend the first several turns just building your board state; not attacking.  I frequently see newer players spending their early turns applying pressure, only to run out of gas and get clobbered.  Every.  Single.  Time. 


The other factor is deck construction.  Knowing that this is how Commander plays out, you need to build your deck accordingly.  Your early drops should be ramp and card draw.


Card selection plays into this a little bit too.  The specific cards you choose should match your style.  If aggro is your style, maybe use creature-based removal like Druid of Purification.  If sitting back and waiting until the last possible moment is your style, use instants like Naturalize.  Don't listen to what your friends say is a good card.  Play what works for you.


« Last Edit: July 06, 2023, 01:01:46 pm by ApothecaryGeist »
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robort

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2023, 03:51:26 pm »
She has to get out of the main focus of winning and losing. Think of it as playing a board game at home where nothing more is going to happen if you win or lose. Yes it is nice when you do win but drop that focus for the time being. Next since decks have been made for her she needs to create something to call her own. You both sit down find out what she likes to play, the play style, what is she going to enjoy. Then go to skryfall and look up and read the commanders to have her choose one she may like. Then with you aiding her while making suggestions use of course this website and build a commander deck. Just something she can enjoy that she knows is hers. Keep the focus on synergy stuff she wants in the deck. Then when she actually plays it on paper she could then ask these question upon any wins or loses. "Did the deck play out the way I wanted it to"? "Did I have fun playing this deck"?. Focusing on the deck itself and not whether or not it wins/loses will take off a lot of the pressure off. As time progresses she'll come to make other decks that will shift that focus. Then as she plays let her make her own decisions whether they be right/wrong because it is a complex game. So instead of trying to mirror you guys she needs to find her own way of playing.
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Rose the Budget Queen

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2023, 08:22:23 pm »
Thank you all for your responses (and for any future ones!) All of your answers have been super helpful and I think my wife and I now have a few ways to help her learn. For now we're going to play a few 1v1 matches that she's guaranteed to win because I'm going to walk her step-by-step through the best ways to do the best plays no matter what gets thrown at her.
Then we're going to sit down and together fully revamp the one deck she did build herself: her monoblack Rats.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2023, 08:24:36 pm by Rose the Budget Queen »

Landale

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2023, 08:54:22 pm »
One thing to have her keep in mind is that you can do everything right and still lose, and that the odds of losing are significantly higher in Commander than other formats simply due to the larger number of players in the game. Unless the power gap between decks is utterly massive, you absolutely should be losing more than you're winning.
Have her get into the mentality of "Did I make them work for it?" not "Did I win?", and the demoralization of constant loss should subside. Did that Thassa's Oracle player have to spend a few extra turns finding an answer to your Hushbringer? Did the Winota, Joiner of Forces deck stall out until they got rid of your Silent Arbiter? Did the K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth player just spend a dangerous amount of life only for you to stop their recovery with Call in a Professional? Did you just get rid of super trample for all of Ruxa, Patient Professor's vanilla creatures with a Mass Hysteria? Yes? Good job, even if you lost you made them work for their win.

WWolfe

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2023, 11:01:02 pm »
Like others have said, don't focus so much on winning- the game should be fun because you enjoy it, not because you have to win. Some of my most enjoyable games have been because a deck worked the way I wanted it to even though it lost, or because I knew I made the other player earn the win, or because I stopped someone else from winning in a way I saw coming before it got to the point of them winning. My last post in the "Games you enjoyed" thread was about a game I lost but enjoyed the hell out of because a single card in the deck worked how I hoped it would when I put it in the deck.

Sure, it's nice to win but a lot of the time I enjoy games like I just mentioned more than some of the games I have won.

That being said, how I taught my ex-girlfriend to play was by her playing and me sitting behind her coaching her. My playgroup was fine with it, it was actually one of the other people's suggestion. After a few games of me pointing things out like this, she started seeing the lines of play fairly quickly and began spotting patterns in what the other players were trying to do.
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UrizenII

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2023, 12:14:00 am »
I don't know who your playgroup is, but it sounds like it might be worth finding another playgroup (I'm not saying ditch your current one, just find another one).  I think one of the best ways to learn is to have a playgroup that is willing to help you learn as well.  It's great that you're trying to help her, but it's better if everyone at the table understands that she's still learning and will give pointers as well. When my friends first got me into the game a few years ago, a couple of them generally played higher-powered decks and it was a bit of trial by fire for me, but they were at least willing to explain what was going on, explain play lines or combos, help with threat assessment or optimal plays, etc. even if I didn't understand it at the time.  The people with whom you play determine how good your experience is almost as much as - if not more than - the decks do.  I'd rather lose and have fun than win and not have fun because I play the same infinite combo every time.

On that note, the other thing I would say is power down decks and play more casually.  I don't think I've looked at any of your other decks, and Rat tribal is pretty straightforward, but it is also quite threatening; you bring a rat deck to the table and immediately you put a target on your back.  It's fine to want to play something like that, but that must come with the understanding that you are a threat before the game even starts.  The less competitive the game, the easier it is to learn in my opinion.

If it's certain mechanics she's struggling to grasp, maybe start by building something simpler to understand basic mechanics and build up from there.  Maybe go through an archetypal deck of each color (green ramps a lot to play big creatures, red likes haste and burn spells, blue draws cards and has counterspells, black plays with the graveyard, white does... well, nobody really knows :P).  When my friend tried to get his wife into the game so she wouldn't feel left out when the guys got together, he built her a Dinosaur tribal Gishath deck.  It was relatively straightforward "play big dinosaurs and punch face" deck with just a couple special interactions or mechanics (in this case, Enrage triggers and how and when to use them) for her to focus on learning... she hardly ever plays it because she literally doesn't have the attention span for a commander game, but she at least understood how to play it and enjoyed it.  I think if your wife can "master" a specific deck or two (and, to echo what someone else said, that features a play style she likes), she'll get more enjoyment out of the game; once you've learned the intricacies of your deck, you can start to focus on how everyone else's decks work and how they interact with yours.

If it's strictly rules - for example phase order, passing priority, what actions you can and can't respond to, how the stack resolves, etc. - that really just comes with repetition.  The same goes for general game knowledge.  Threat assessment is difficult when you've never even heard of half the cards in your opponents' decks and don't know certain combos (I've played for four or five years now and there still is not a single game where I don't have to ask, "What does that card do?").  It is very much a learn by doing game.  Many interactions don't seem to be intuitive at all, and I still get stumped trying to resolve certain things.  Magic can be super confusing and is incredibly complex.  In fact, it's actually the most complicated game, so much so that you can build a computer with it (in the literal sense of the word - you can create a Turing machine with it).  Playing can definitely be discouraging when you're constantly bombarded with new interactions and weirdly specific rules.

I'll be honest, Magic seems much harder to learn now that it was even three or four years ago because of all the new mechanics they keep introducing, not to mention that now ever single card has a giant block of text on it and vanilla creatures are basically nonexistent.  I don't envy new players nowadays with the deluge of new cards and hundreds of potential new commanders every year.  It is something you have to want to learn, not something you can just casually pick up.

Rose the Budget Queen

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2023, 10:06:19 pm »

If it's strictly rules - for example phase order, passing priority, what actions you can and can't respond to, how the stack resolves, etc. - that really just comes with repetition.  The same goes for general game knowledge.  Threat assessment is difficult when you've never even heard of half the cards in your opponents' decks and don't know certain combos (I've played for four or five years now and there still is not a single game where I don't have to ask, "What does that card do?").  It is very much a learn by doing game.  Many interactions don't seem to be intuitive at all, and I still get stumped trying to resolve certain things.  Magic can be super confusing and is incredibly complex.  In fact, it's actually the most complicated game, so much so that you can build a computer with it (in the literal sense of the word - you can create a Turing machine with it).  Playing can definitely be discouraging when you're constantly bombarded with new interactions and weirdly specific rules.

Last night we completely deconstructed her Rats deck and built it from scratch together. I told her reasons why certain cards should and shouldn't be in the deck, how many of each category should be in the deck (ramp, draw, etc)  changed a shit ton of cards, but also kept enough of the things she put in herself to keep the flavor of the deck she loves. We played two "open hand" games where I would openly tell her what I was planning on doing before I did it, and she would ask me the best plays. The first game I got completely shut out because of me being completely mana-swamped and her getting a pre-game Leyline of the Void against my Slimefoot, The Stowaway deck. The 2nd game went a lot better and was actually more of a challenge, but she pulled off several complex plays (with my help). In regards to your comment about rules, I am now very very sure that was the main thing holding her back. She gets super confused about timing issues (and don't even start on the stack). We worked on strategies with activated abilities and instant speed cards and her deck ran super smoothly even when I had superior board state at one point. She ended up winning with infinite rats/Infinite mill. We're going to do the deck reconstruction to all of her decks and play some more "help" games to learning timing and strategy better. Again, thank you all so so much! You guys and gals are awesome! <3

Edit: In regards to losing and winning, we realized it's not so much about losing time and time again, it's the feeling of not knowing what to do in order to even attempt to win. This goes back to rules issues and timing issues, which is something her and I are working on a lot more now.
Many of you were also right in suggesting switching up play groups. The main peeps we play with tend to be very competitive and almost always play high powered decks. Her and I are going to continue our 1v1 "help" games but also probably seek out some different groups at some of the LGS near us.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2023, 10:18:21 pm by Rose the Budget Queen »

eomereolsson

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2023, 12:48:28 am »
I'd like to recommend a few games of MtG Arena. I never really quite got "the stack" until I could see it visually represented in front of me on the screen.

WWolfe

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2023, 06:10:46 pm »
Glad to see things are going well with her! Hopefully she continues to grow!
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12aptor1nfinity

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2023, 05:08:58 pm »
She has to get out of the main focus of winning and losing. Think of it as playing a board game at home where nothing more is going to happen if you win or lose. Yes it is nice when you do win but drop that focus for the time being. Next since decks have been made for her she needs to create something to call her own. You both sit down find out what she likes to play, the play style, what is she going to enjoy. Then go to skryfall and look up and read the commanders to have her choose one she may like. Then with you aiding her while making suggestions use of course this website and build a commander deck. Just something she can enjoy that she knows is hers. Keep the focus on synergy stuff she wants in the deck. Then when she actually plays it on paper she could then ask these question upon any wins or loses. "Did the deck play out the way I wanted it to"? "Did I have fun playing this deck"?. Focusing on the deck itself and not whether or not it wins/loses will take off a lot of the pressure off. As time progresses she'll come to make other decks that will shift that focus. Then as she plays let her make her own decisions whether they be right/wrong because it is a complex game. So instead of trying to mirror you guys she needs to find her own way of playing.

I think this is the best reply in summary (upvoted!). There are too many rules and interactions to try and teach someone all of them before you start to play, let alone the tactics surrounding them.

I think you should help her build her own deck (you probably already have by now), and then she can work on improving it after each match, usually in one of these ways:
- You can change the deck to counter the specific deck you lost to, but won’t necessarily make it better in general. Good practice for deck tweaking, but sometimes the answer is just don’t play your deck against a deck which directly counters it.
- Make sure the deck is fun to play and if you don’t enjoy a card or combo (even if it is strong) swap it for something more fun.
- Create a goal besides winning for the next game and tweak the deck for that. Try to get your life total above 100, or pull off a specific combo. If playing against a better player/deck try to just survive for X turns or not go out first in multiplayer.

Lastly, game politics wise for multiplayer - help her identify the biggest threat in the room (to her deck or in general) and focus on that opponent. Don’t spread your aggression out - defend yourself and otherwise try to let the big dogs fight each other more than you.


stuffnsuch

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Re: How to make a better magic player
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2023, 09:56:25 pm »
I just want to reiterate that she needs to build and build around something she likes.  Have her build Cat Tribal if she likes cats.  Have her build just a bunch of ramp and big beaters if she likes going to combat.  Have her build some combo that's 50% in the command zone (not one that wins the game, necessarily, but one that lets her do something cool like draw 12 cards for one mana or something) if she likes combos.  If she likes the graveyard, have her build some aristocrats or self mill.  If she likes alternative win cons, have her build mill.  Using that last example, it doesn't really matter if she wins, but if she can mill out one player, or even just discourage any card draw for the table, that'll be her victory.
Most importantly, just get her building something she wants to play, regardless of how it does in the long run.
My wife's very competitive, and she doesn't play Magic with me, strictly because she can't handle the constant loosing.  That all changed with the recent Middle Earth expansion.  She loves Samwise Gamgee, the character, so now she has a food token deck with Sam at the helm.  She loves to play it, and has been particular about not adding any cards that break the flavor of her deck.  It's been fun to watch her explore deck building, and having so much more fun playing because now a loss is a puzzle she can build a solution to, and each "victory" along the way feels more like something she made happen, not just lucky draws.  Give your wife ownership of her games by allowing her to be the brain behind the build.