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Author Topic: Helm of the Host / Copying rules question  (Read 551 times)

Fuzzy2Wasy

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Helm of the Host / Copying rules question
« on: May 24, 2023, 09:41:40 pm »
I am having an internal debate regarding copying creatures and keywords, and possibly even P/T, being permanently added to the newly created token.  I am sure I'm overthinking it, but maybe I'm not

So I've never really made a deck that copies creatures, but for a science experiment I post a deck for Mondrak, Glory Dominus
https://deckstats.net/decks/161626/3051939-how-many-mondraks-would-a-mond


My question regards cards such as Bastion Protector, Blade of Selves, Swiftfoot Boots, Archangel Elspeth, Akroma's Will, and even equipment like Bloodforged Battle-Axe
Since Helm of the Host triggers at the start of the combat phase, if my Mondrak (or whatever creature it was equipped to) had any of there above effects added to it, or stat buffs, in the first main phase, would the token copies then have those effects "permanently" on the token??

Example:   I complete my Beginning phase and move into my First Main Phase.  I have my Mondrak out, Anointed Procession on the board, Bastion Protector on the Board, Archangel Elspeth on the board, Helm of the Host on the board, and Giver of Runes on the board.  I pay my mana to equip Helm of the Host to my Mondrak.  I then activate Archangel Elspeth 's -2 ability and give Mondrak two +1/+1 counters and it becomes an Angel in addition to other types and gains flying.  I tap my Giver of Runes to give my Mondrak Protection from Green until end of turn.  Then I move to combat phase

What I think happens:  I get 3 new BASE Mondrak tokens (1 from the Helm, 1 additional from the original Mondrak trigger adding an extra token, and 1 from the anointed procession trigger).   Each of these Mondrak tokens are [{Non-Legendary because Helm says so} Creature - Phyrexian Horror;  Extra Token triggered + activated payment abilities; 4/4] .  Next turn (if nothing else changes) when I move to combat I get 6 new Mondrak tokens because the Helm trigger, the OG trigger, the 3 tokens trigger, and the AP trigger.  So on and so forth on future turns.

What I think might happen: I get 3 new altered Mondrak tokens (1 from the Helm, 1 additional from the original Mondrak trigger adding an extra token, and 1 from the anointed procession trigger).   Each of these Mondrak tokens are [{Non-Legendary} Creature - Phyrexian Horror Angel; Keywords = Flying, Indestructible, Protection from Green;  Extra Token triggered + activated payment abilities; 6/6].  Next turn (if nothing else changes) I can tap my Giver of Runes to give one of the (now altered) tokens protection from Red, move my Helm over to that token that got the added protection, move to combat and get 6 new tokens that have all previous keyword abilities and in addition they have protection from red.  So on and so forth. 

Which is correct, or somewhere in the middle? 

TYIA

Somewhitedude001

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Re: Helm of the Host / Copying rules question
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2023, 10:07:20 pm »
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Copy

Specifically,
"Copying permanents

Effects that copy permanents either cause a card to enter the battlefield as a copy, change an existing object into a copy, or create a token copy. Only the "copiable values" of an object are copied - essentially the attributes that would be printed on a card directly - not subsequent modifications such as counters, attached permanents, or spell effects. "

Mondrak + Procession aren't independent, you'd make 4 tokens. 1 from the Helm, Mondrak makes that 2, then Procession makes that 4.

From the oracle text, "If you control two Anointed Processions, then the number of tokens created is four times the original number. If you control three, then the number of tokens created is eight times the original number, and so on. (2017-04-18)"

Bastion Protector isn't a factor, only one (or two, if you have partner commanders) card can be your commander at a time. The token copies aren't your commander, so they don't get +2/+2 and indestructible.

What you get is your Commander, OG Mondrak, is an 8/8 Legendary Phyrexian Horror Angel with Flying and Protection from Green. You then get 4 copies of Mondrak, that are 4/4 Phyrexian Horrors with Haste.

As for your next turn, you have six(6) doubling effects at that point. 1 from OG Mondrak, 4 from the Draklings, and 1 from Anointed Procession. You'd make 32 Mondrak 4/4 Phyrexian Horrors with Haste.

I'm not a judge, somebody else feel free to proofread and @ me if I missed something, haha. Hope this helps

Aetherium Slinky

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Re: Helm of the Host / Copying rules question
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2023, 11:50:12 am »
Confirming the above. Any static effects (such as Bastion Protector) are not copiable values.

Here's a long article on how copying works. I'm not going to quote all of it, too much text: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr706/
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stuffnsuch

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Re: Helm of the Host / Copying rules question
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2023, 12:32:52 am »
Yeah, from a big fan of Adrix and Nev, Twincasters, I love making copies of everything on my board, especially my commander.  One of the cool things about copying is that even though you don't get to keep any effects on the creature, you can sometimes use that to your advantage.  If you use an act of treason effect and then copy the creature, you get to keep the copies.  If you copy the tokens you make from a myriad effect, the copies don't exile at end of combat.  So, yeah, you don't get all the bonuses, but there are times when only copying the permanent is really cool, too.

Note, Mondrak, Glory Dominus and Anointed Procession and such don't actually make tokens, so the original affect is still making the tokens, so in Blade of Selves' case, the extra copies from Blade of Selves still exile.