New cards that shouldn't be printed or expanding on current design space

[WWolfe]

There was some debate today at my LGS about some of the cards being printed in LOTR. Specifically these two:



The argument against Orcish Bowmasters was that it will just hamper creature strategies by allowing yet another machine gun strategy (equip it with Basilk Collar...). The argument for Orcish Bowmasters is that it requires a lot of setup for your Nekusar type deck and is less efficient than targeting the players themselves.

The argument against Mirkwood Bats was that it's easily abusable and gives token decks another win alternative that can hamper the format by making an already popular archetype that much more popular. The argument for Mirkwood Bats was that it requires setup and just adds a new dimension to an already popular archetype.

Thoughts?

[robort]

I don't see a new dimension with Mirkwood Bats considering there all ready is Marionette Master that especially with treasure tokens. Make a treasure token, sac it and with both of those cards on the battlefield that is going to be 5 damage.  Then add any food and clue tokens and welcome to the pain train. Figure at 5 damage and on avg of 40 or less life for your opponents, won't be hard to have 8 artifacts enter to sacrifice and or destroy.

[Morganator 2.0]

The argument for Orcish Bowmasters is that it requires a lot of setup for your Nekusar type deck and is less efficient than targeting the players themselves.

Not really though. Cast Orcish Bowmasters for 1 damage and then follw it up with a wheel effect for 3 mana. That's 5 mana for approximately 28 damage divided as you choose and a 28/28 orc army. A pretty nifty 1-sided boardwipe.

Oh right, I'm supposed to be working on the boardwipe tier list...

[WWolfe]

Quite slacking mister!

[Morganator 2.0]

Quite slacking mister!

You're on my case about slacking? Where's the Sidisi primer?

[WWolfe]

Umm, it’s still a work in progress. Maybe by the end of summer.

[fluffyp]

From a Commander only perspective ...

I like both these cards.  I saw Orcish Bowmasters and immediately thought it's additional redundancy for my Queza, Augur of Agonies deck; I saw Mirwood Bats and thought it's additional redundancy for my Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin deck.  Do I think they can be abused and become totally busted in someone's deck?  Yes, of course.  Most cards are.  The two decks I mentioned above can be built to be a terrible experience for the playgroup.  Do I build that way?  No, because I like to be invited back 

Do I ultimately mind that these cards are in the format?  Not really, but I have an established playgroup and we let each other know if some combo we've managed to build into our decks is killing the fun.  That won't stop some of our group from keeping them in, but maybe they'll reduce the tutors in the decks.  Or I'll keep a bit of interaction aside when I know some has these cards.  For me, I often just won't put them in.  I haven't put Sheoldred, the Apocalypse in my Queza deck for just this reason - sometimes it's overkill and it can ruin the fun.

So for me, I come down on the side of it probably will not affect me much so I don't mind.  It's a selfish way to look at it, and I sure am glad I am not on the Commander Advisory Group or the Commander Rules Committee to have to make those kinds of calls.  They banned Hullbreacher and it didn't make a bit of difference to me, personally.  Would I mind if they banned these cards?  Not at all - I think it's not necessary, but it will mean I don't have the headache of deciding what to cut from my decks in order to fit them in at least.

[anjinsan]

The argument for Orcish Bowmasters is that it requires a lot of setup for your Nekusar type deck and is less efficient than targeting the players themselves.

Not really though. Cast Orcish Bowmasters for 1 damage and then follw it up with a wheel effect for 3 mana.

Or just cast Orcish Bowmasters for 1 damage, then you killed an Esper Sentinel or Ragavan for 2 mana and made two bodies to use as sac fodder, assuming that nobody ever draws another card ever. Seems like an OK rate to me.