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Author Topic: Azorious freeze EDH  (Read 913 times)

Adelissa

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Azorious freeze EDH
« on: December 02, 2023, 04:43:40 am »
Azorious freeze EDH

Updated my Hylda deck to be a bit less budget. With this in mind does anyone have some more adjustments to bring it in line with a power 6-7 deck?

Landale

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2023, 07:17:31 am »
I do notice a fair bit of non recurring single target taps, Freeze in Place, Impede Momentum, Icefall Regent, Succumb to the Cold.
On the other hand, you seem to be lacking in repeatable taps, which help free up your mana to get Hylda going. Citadel Siege, Dreamshackle Geist, Elite Scaleguard, Gadwick, the Wizened, Greatsword of Tyr, Niblis of the Urn, Frostwalk Bastion, Queen of Ice, etc.
You also seem to be lacking a couple good mass taps. Ensnare and Regna's Sanction, which are likely to help more than Sleep and Subjugator Angel.

Power levels on decks, especially a 1-10 scale, are often kind of a joke, "Every deck is a 7" and all that after all, so it's hard to really say what you're trying to go for. It's also a pretty big question as to your meta. For example, I've got a Hylda deck myself running Angel of Jubilation and Containment Priest, not due to fitting into the deck's goals, but simply because I've got a lot of graveyard shenanigans going on at my tables. On the other hand you're running a lot of generically good stuff, Esper Sentinel, Cyclonic Rift, etc, as well as things that play against your own commander, Willbreaker (The creatures stop being your opponents' so Hylda won't trigger) or stun counters on one time effects (stunned creatures don't untap so you can't retap for more triggers). So, honestly, I'm not too sure exactly what kinds of things you're actually after. If you're just fishing for random ideas, well this is what I did with her if any of it interests you. https://deckstats.net/decks/168446/3271322-hylda-of-the-icy-crown
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 08:26:00 am by Landale »

Adelissa

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2023, 06:29:30 am »
I do notice a fair bit of non recurring single target taps, Freeze in Place, Impede Momentum, Icefall Regent, Succumb to the Cold.
On the other hand, you seem to be lacking in repeatable taps, which help free up your mana to get Hylda going. Citadel Siege, Dreamshackle Geist, Elite Scaleguard, Gadwick, the Wizened, Greatsword of Tyr, Niblis of the Urn, Frostwalk Bastion, Queen of Ice, etc.
You also seem to be lacking a couple good mass taps. Ensnare and Regna's Sanction, which are likely to help more than Sleep and Subjugator Angel.

Power levels on decks, especially a 1-10 scale, are often kind of a joke, "Every deck is a 7" and all that after all, so it's hard to really say what you're trying to go for. It's also a pretty big question as to your meta. For example, I've got a Hylda deck myself running Angel of Jubilation and Containment Priest, not due to fitting into the deck's goals, but simply because I've got a lot of graveyard shenanigans going on at my tables. On the other hand you're running a lot of generically good stuff, Esper Sentinel, Cyclonic Rift, etc, as well as things that play against your own commander, Willbreaker (The creatures stop being your opponents' so Hylda won't trigger) or stun counters on one time effects (stunned creatures don't untap so you can't retap for more triggers). So, honestly, I'm not too sure exactly what kinds of things you're actually after. If you're just fishing for random ideas, well this is what I did with her if any of it interests you. https://deckstats.net/decks/168446/3271322-hylda-of-the-icy-crown

My table uses a lot of tokens especially so koma and I often time have a super hard time dealing with it. I'm still fairly new to commander(only 2 years or so) so I'm not familiar with a lot of cards, do you have any suggestions that may help there?

Landale

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2023, 07:38:33 am »
The Angel of Jubilation I mentioned in my own Hylda deck does partially shut down Koma, since it can no longer sacrifice things.
Gelid Shackles is exceptional at shutting down activated commanders, though you'll need some snow mana sources if you want to keep Koma from swinging in. Darksteel Mutation, Imprisoned in the Moon, Demotion, Trapped in the Tower, Stupefying Touch, Lawmage's Binding, Planar Disruption, and Petrify are other good choices along this train of thought. Removal is almost never the answer to a problem with someone else's commander, but rather finding a way to disable it and keep it there harmlessly.
Drannith Magistrate is also an option, but it will get you hated off the table pretty quick.

Board wipes in general are good for dealing with tokens, though they can be detrimental to yourself as well depending on which you choose. That Cyclonic Rift you've got, for example, is a pretty good call if you're seeing a lot of token spam.
There's an old cycle of cards that are relevant to this as well, though not all are usable for this deck. Echoing Calm, Echoing Truth (Among the best budget token wipes, the only one to see reprints in Commander precons), Echoing Decay, and Echoing Ruin (Excellent for dealing with Treasures, Thopters, Servos, and the like, baffling that it hasn't been reprinted ever). For the record, the green part of the cycle is Echoing Courage and instead serves as a decent budget tool for empowering token decks rather than shutting them down like the rest.
Filter Out would help if you were dealing with a large number of noncreature tokens, but in this case may not be that helpful.
Displacement Wave with X as 0 will wipe all noncopy tokens, due to having no mana value. It'll nail your own Elementals in this particular deck, but if you're in danger it's better to reset things. Hylda can explode again quickly if you have the mana, Koma takes a little bit of time.

If general aggression is your problem, forcing things to be tapped on entry helps too. This won't trigger Hylda as they did not tap they simply are tapped, but it still helps to buy you time and space to push your own aggression. Things for this would be Kismet, Frozen Aether, or Blind Obedience (The Extort W/B hybrid is in reminder text, not rules text, so it doesn't cause it to be illegal in a W/U deck).
This sort of matchup is also why I advise using as little one shot taps as possible and go for mass or repetition. Hylda's tokens are 4/4 against Koma's 3/3s, so aside from your Timin and Topplegeist a Citadel Siege will help you get triggers across multiple turns, and a Victory Chimes can ensure you can always exploit it for another token or start pumping your board.
Speaking of her ability to pump your board, Abzan Battle Priest and Abzan Falconer allow you to quickly turn things in your favor as a handful of flying lifelinking 5/5s or bigger demand an immediate response.

Also, I'd like to explain exactly how good Ensnare is. Let's say, between mana rocks, dorks, and lands, you've got 10 mana and everyone's got a pretty decent board state. You go to combat, swing all out except with the mana dorks, hold priority, tap everything for mana, and bounce two Islands to your hand to free cast Ensnare. Tapping all your own stuff doesn't matter, since they already are, and you now have 10 mana floating to pay into Hylda giving everything you swung with +10/+10 and nobody has any blockers. This is even nicer if you have Icewrought Sentry and/or Rhoda, Geist Avenger out as they'll become so utterly massive they might just one shot some people all on their own. Blustersquall, which you're already running, does an ok attempt at this too, but you'll be down 4 mana since it doesn't have a free cast option.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 10:27:05 am by Landale »

Adelissa

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2023, 12:59:19 am »
The Angel of Jubilation I mentioned in my own Hylda deck does partially shut down Koma, since it can no longer sacrifice things.
Gelid Shackles is exceptional at shutting down activated commanders, though you'll need some snow mana sources if you want to keep Koma from swinging in. Darksteel Mutation, Imprisoned in the Moon, Demotion, Trapped in the Tower, Stupefying Touch, Lawmage's Binding, Planar Disruption, and Petrify are other good choices along this train of thought. Removal is almost never the answer to a problem with someone else's commander, but rather finding a way to disable it and keep it there harmlessly.
Drannith Magistrate is also an option, but it will get you hated off the table pretty quick.

Board wipes in general are good for dealing with tokens, though they can be detrimental to yourself as well depending on which you choose. That Cyclonic Rift you've got, for example, is a pretty good call if you're seeing a lot of token spam.
There's an old cycle of cards that are relevant to this as well, though not all are usable for this deck. Echoing Calm, Echoing Truth (Among the best budget token wipes, the only one to see reprints in Commander precons), Echoing Decay, and Echoing Ruin (Excellent for dealing with Treasures, Thopters, Servos, and the like, baffling that it hasn't been reprinted ever). For the record, the green part of the cycle is Echoing Courage and instead serves as a decent budget tool for empowering token decks rather than shutting them down like the rest.
Filter Out would help if you were dealing with a large number of noncreature tokens, but in this case may not be that helpful.
Displacement Wave with X as 0 will wipe all noncopy tokens, due to having no mana value. It'll nail your own Elementals in this particular deck, but if you're in danger it's better to reset things. Hylda can explode again quickly if you have the mana, Koma takes a little bit of time.

If general aggression is your problem, forcing things to be tapped on entry helps too. This won't trigger Hylda as they did not tap they simply are tapped, but it still helps to buy you time and space to push your own aggression. Things for this would be Kismet, Frozen Aether, or Blind Obedience (The Extort W/B hybrid is in reminder text, not rules text, so it doesn't cause it to be illegal in a W/U deck).
This sort of matchup is also why I advise using as little one shot taps as possible and go for mass or repetition. Hylda's tokens are 4/4 against Koma's 3/3s, so aside from your Timin and Topplegeist a Citadel Siege will help you get triggers across multiple turns, and a Victory Chimes can ensure you can always exploit it for another token or start pumping your board.
Speaking of her ability to pump your board, Abzan Battle Priest and Abzan Falconer allow you to quickly turn things in your favor as a handful of flying lifelinking 5/5s or bigger demand an immediate response.

Also, I'd like to explain exactly how good Ensnare is. Let's say, between mana rocks, dorks, and lands, you've got 10 mana and everyone's got a pretty decent board state. You go to combat, swing all out except with the mana dorks, hold priority, tap everything for mana, and bounce two Islands to your hand to free cast Ensnare. Tapping all your own stuff doesn't matter, since they already are, and you now have 10 mana floating to pay into Hylda giving everything you swung with +10/+10 and nobody has any blockers. This is even nicer if you have Icewrought Sentry and/or Rhoda, Geist Avenger out as they'll become so utterly massive they might just one shot some people all on their own. Blustersquall, which you're already running, does an ok attempt at this too, but you'll be down 4 mana since it doesn't have a free cast option.

Thank you for the suggestions, here are the adjustments I made https://deckstats.net/decks/199050/3190753-azorious-freeze-edh/en

Landale

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2023, 04:49:24 am »
Looks like a good first step, though I'm a bit surprised you didn't make any anti-Koma adjustments given your concerns. Should definitely try to get a Victory Chimes for it either way though, always having mana to pay into Hylda on others' turns is amazing.
Hopefully the deck works out a little nicer for you, let us know how it goes and if any other notable issues come up.

3Zwergeimtrenchcoat

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2023, 05:48:54 pm »
Hi Adelissa,
I really love Hylda and love having draw and great board presence in the command Zone. I love the flavor of being an icy control queen.

Every tap Hylda converts into value. It gives you either preordains (scry 2, draw 1) or 4/4 elementals for 1 Mana.

therefore the priority should be to begin tapping your opponents creatures as early as possible and bring out Hylda as early as possible.

This requires a working mana base and ramp package. My deck also has 37-38 Lands and 8 Pieces of ramp. This seems fine. You can easily also Play 39 Lands and 9-10 pieces of
ramp.

Using Hylda as early as possible requires also cheap, ideally repeatable tap effects,
I Really like niblis of the urn or citadel Siege.
Bonus points if the tappers trigger upon hylda‘s effects of scrying or creatures entering like elvish mariner or street court denizen.
I also run 10 cheap tap instants like downpour.

This is really the Heart of the deck. And I think that is were your list is falling a little short.

You are running only 16 of these cards and most of them stil require mana to invest on the same turn you want to activate Hylda like Zygon infiltrator. Niblis of Frost or topplegeist seem to conditional to constantly activate Hylda.
As Hylda effectively is cheap tap tribal, I like to aim to have at least 30 of these effects.
As at least 30 elves would go into elf tribal.

Generically good cards like Rhystic Study and Esper Sentinel don’t help your game Plan all that much and aren‘t on theme or synergy. As Hylda is a good draw engine, it seems good to replace them with cheap tap effects.

Cards like subjugator angel taps down creatures, while you don‘t have mana to activate Hylda.

Other tap specific boardwipes like sunblast angel are cool and can replace generic boardwipes when you have enough tappers.
I also like to run more interaction and couterspells as usual, because Hylda gives you could card advantage and card.

Shut down Koma with imprisoned in the moon or immovable rod. ;)

Have fun.  :)

Landale

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2023, 08:04:43 pm »
Generically good cards like Rhystic Study and Esper Sentinel don’t help your game Plan all that much and aren‘t on theme or synergy. As Hylda is a good draw engine, it seems good to replace them with cheap tap effects.
Every time you use Hylda to draw you're not using her to advance toward a win, so having additional sources of draw helps out considerably. Additionally the taxing effect of those cards does play into what Hylda wants to be doing, which is dragging everyone else down to a crawl.

3Zwergeimtrenchcoat

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2023, 09:53:22 pm »
You are effectively right.
Esper sentinel and Rhystic Study will perform very well. They will draw cards and or outtempo your opponents early on. I feel these cards would make me archenemy. My goal, however is to stay alive, fly under the radar and slowly outgrind my remaining opponents, like any true ice queen would.  ;)


Similarly, I run tocasia‘s welcome, verity circle and sharae and eligeth, in their stead.
Effectively freeing ressources that previously were invested into card draw. Still, pre-ordains without paying a card are really nice.


More cheap and repeatable tap effects would really help the deck You want to have them on your starting end and want to draw into more of them in the turns ahead.
My absolute favorite cards in Hylda are Opposition:)
And Kiora, Bests the Sea-God is amazing. As you tap your opponents creatures down on a turn you do not spend mana and get a huge beater on top and steal your opponents best creature.


100000 arrows and theft of dreams also can draw a lot of cards for cheap and I really struggle why not to run them. What do you think of them?

And yes ensnare is broken. I should run it.
As deck tech, I will take inspiration also from curse of chains and victory chimes!


Icy greetings
« Last Edit: December 25, 2023, 11:20:18 pm by 3Zwergeimtrenchcoat »

Landale

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Re: Azorious freeze EDH
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2023, 11:51:12 pm »
100000 arrows and theft of dreams also can draw a lot of cards for cheap and I really struggle why not to run them. What do you think of them?

They're not bad, but not particularly amazing either. If you have a sufficient amount of free tapping you're likely already pushing along nicely to a win, but if you don't you're not likely to have the amount of things tapped down to get a good sized draw or have enough mana left over to make use of it. Basically, they're not something I'd run but they're also not something I'd tell people not to.