So say you're on the Commander Rules Committee....

[robort]

While I can see and understand a ban on 2 mana stuff and below. The question would come up per the dockside extortionist I mean how far would it go? Do we also ban anything that creates treasures? What about all the cost reductions?
By also doing this how much would it reflect on people playing big expensive splashy janky stuff? The avg mana cost for decks would drop down because people just won't play high costed mana cards. If I recall correctly that the Command Zone did data and came up with games are on avg over by turn 7-8. Weather that is really accurate I don't know(the data that is). So wouldn't that with per say such bannings increase it to say 10-12 and even higher? Also how would it also effect the cedh aspect side of it?

[WWolfe]

I would think cEDH would want to become its own thing at that point. I’m for less bannings than more. I think it just overcomplicates things.

[EMaxxi]

If you want to ban super-fast mana and tutors, the Centurion banlist is a good starting point, imho. (I need to know who decided that Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is a balanced commander, though...)
https://www.centurioncommander.eu/ban-list/

Note that this is a variant of Duel Commander (so 1v1), so some cards that scale with the number of opponents are less problematic/powerful (Dockside, Rhystic study,...)

[anjinsan]

I read this.  The author concludes that this format of banning low mana value ramp did not work for him.  Stating that it made playing an otherwise optimized deck feel like it was just wasting time.

Way to take a misleading comment out of context! The author only says that in reference to banning 1-mv ramp, because they contend that it doesn't meaningfully impact casual decks that much and so just feels like you're setting yourself back a small amount vs normal decks. In fact, a lot of the conclusions are given over to what it's like playing decks with this restriction vs decks without, with the author's greatest issue being getting people to opt in. That's hardly relevant if we're talking about bans that would affect everyone equally.

I've definitely heard of other people trying this experiment and liking it. I'm sure some wouldn't. I'm gradually becoming more and more convinced that it would make more sense from the point of view of game design, though, for all the reasons previously discussed.

Some of the stuff I've heard people at the LGS say they'd ban totally depends on where you like the power level of your deck IMO. The more optimized players groan when people mention banning fast mana and something like Dockside. The lower power players are all for banning damn near everything that gets played in optimized decks.

Eh, I think it depends. I tend to play relatively "optimised" decks; I don't fancy cEDH but I will put in the best cards for the specific job I want them to do and I run powerful staples and even fast mana a lot of the time. Yet, I wouldn't at all mind if they were banned. I think some of us in fact would prefer to optimise within tougher restrictions so that we can let loose a bit more without feeling they've gone too far.

While I can see and understand a ban on 2 mana stuff and below. The question would come up per the dockside extortionist I mean how far would it go? Do we also ban anything that creates treasures? What about all the cost reductions?

You'd go exactly as far as you felt necessary. I'm proposing that that line lies on the other side of 2-mv ramp but I very much doubt it would lie any further. If people didn't have 2-mana rocks I'm sure they would play 3-mana rocks but maybe not so many of them, and maybe some wouldn't bother at all (which is a good sign that you've hit the right balance), I don't know. There are certainly plenty of decent 3-mana rocks nowadays that would likely be deemed good enough if the competition were worse (and Brawl for example sees quite a lot of 3-mana ramp).

It's not like it's a "slippery slope", though, you just pick a level and stick with it. Right now that level is left of Sol Ring, though I think we would all be amazed if any more cards on a similar level to that were printed.

Dockside is a bit of a special case as it's uniquely overpowered. I think it's on a lot of people's "would ban" lists even if they've never thought about ramp, maybe even if they would still allow fast mana. The idea that you'd ban anything that creates treasures too is one heck of a false equivalence. If you think of Dockside as a ritual it's clearly miles ahead of stuff like Desperate Ritual, and then it has a bunch of additional advantages too due to being a small creature and the fact that they're treasures not just raw mana.

By also doing this how much would it reflect on people playing big expensive splashy janky stuff? The avg mana cost for decks would drop down because people just won't play high costed mana cards.

Frankly I'm not sure it would move the dial on that much anyway. The average mana cost for decks nowadays is typically super low anyway; I've very few decks that have an average above 3. I don't think most people are ramping fast to play an 8-mana spell on turn 5, they're ramping to play a 3- or 4-mana spell on turn 1 or 2. If you want big mana, you can still play big ramp spells (Explosive Vegetation types) or mana doublers. That's not the same as fast ramp which is about getting an early advantage that can carry you through the game.

This might even make big mana a bigger deal, but at least people would have some time to establish some board state or have some answers. Being ahead on mana isn't necessarily a problem, the real issue is someone going Sol Ring -> mana rock turn 1 and then having 5 mana on turn 2 when everyone else has 2, that just makes for a hugely lopsided game (especially if they then wheel or cast a big draw spell).

[WWolfe]

I can kind of see both sides of the mana ramp ban. It may fit what some people want for the format but it would be against what others of the format would want. Who knows which side is bigger. Based on the LGS up here that I go to more, the vast majority of the players there would be against it.

[DerSeher]

One thing about the RC is that they are in a weird spot between the player base and WOTC. If they ban to many op cards, WOTC will come up with their own Commander rules and new players will find those first and the RC will fall out of existence.

This is why they should only act, whenever they are needed the most.
As I only play in one isolated group, with an implicit banlist ("Cards must not be as OP as Cyclonic Rift or stronger") I can't tell, wether there are really problematic cards as of right now.
However I would advise for keeping it as it is.
Fetches: They are very strong and their purpose is to allow for really op mana bases.
Hybrid Mana: The idea of the color identity is to ristrict what you can do, to the color pie. A gruul card is red AND green, so it should not enter a rakdos deck.
One Ring: No opinnion.

[anjinsan]

I can kind of see both sides of the mana ramp ban. It may fit what some people want for the format but it would be against what others of the format would want. Who knows which side is bigger. Based on the LGS up here that I go to more, the vast majority of the players there would be against it.

I think that a majority (though I don't think a vast majority) would be against it, yeah. Or at least, think they are. The vast(?) majority of players don't play cEDH (or play non-cEDH games as well as cEDH) - so these clearly are looking for something quite different to EDH as it is. I think there are several of them who might think that banning 2-mv ramp is crazy but would actually prefer the game if it were like that. Certainly if we'd never had 2-mv ramp and then WotC printed some people would be up in arms about it!

I think that banning fast mana only would be on the whole quite popular (except Sol Ring maybe, which people seem to think is fine despite it being bonkers-overpowered).

[Diskret]

Ban a few cards that are way too expensive for the format, mostly the cEDH stuff because it's completely against the spirit of the game, mana crypt, ban this mfking Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite because f- this -2/-2, and maybe Sheoldred and Braids while we're at it. (yeahhh I'm kinda salty over these 3 specifically)

[WWolfe]

I can kind of see both sides of the mana ramp ban. It may fit what some people want for the format but it would be against what others of the format would want. Who knows which side is bigger. Based on the LGS up here that I go to more, the vast majority of the players there would be against it.

I think that a majority (though I don't think a vast majority) would be against it, yeah. Or at least, think they are. The vast(?) majority of players don't play cEDH (or play non-cEDH games as well as cEDH) - so these clearly are looking for something quite different to EDH as it is. I think there are several of them who might think that banning 2-mv ramp is crazy but would actually prefer the game if it were like that. Certainly if we'd never had 2-mv ramp and then WotC printed some people would be up in arms about it!

I think that banning fast mana only would be on the whole quite popular (except Sol Ring maybe, which people seem to think is fine despite it being bonkers-overpowered).

But just because they're not looking for cEDH doesn't mean they're not looking for optimized level play which is far different from cEDH itself. That optimized play also uses a lot of 2 MV or less ramp. I don't play cEDH and I look to optimize my decks, which some of the time includes 2 MV or less ramp.

I've been playing long enough to have seen the format speed up with the power creep (I believe you have as well). It's not necessarily a bad thing. Games use to go 12-15 turns, now they're probably 7-10 on average. More likely to hold everyones attention for that long versus players that know they're out of the game checking out early.

Like I said, I really see both sides of it but I don't think it would appease as many players as you seem think.

[anjinsan]

Ban a few cards that are way too expensive for the format, mostly the cEDH stuff because it's completely against the spirit of the game, mana crypt, ban this mfking Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite because f- this -2/-2, and maybe Sheoldred and Braids while we're at it. (yeahhh I'm kinda salty over these 3 specifically)

I'm not sure that banning expensive stuff makes a lot of sense, and certainly not from a game design point of view. Mind you, if I had my way, I'd have everything be reprinted into the ground anyway. The whole idea of some cards being $$$ feels a bit too Ponzi scheme to me.

I've been playing long enough to have seen the format speed up with the power creep (I believe you have as well).

Not necessarily, no, and indeed some people clearly prefer that. Frankly, EDH should probably split, into cEDH (i.e. EDH now) and something a bit slower. EDH has always been pitched as this slower, jankier, Timmy-friendly format, but it's not, it's this kind of weird proto-Vintage thing with lots of fast ramp and hyper-efficient interaction.

I don't know whether any given person would actually prefer a slower version of the format, or how many would, I'm just judging by how much people complain about fast mana and competitive decks and apparently don't want to see them in their casual games, or complain about things exploding early or whatever.

I like to optimise too. That's why I run 2-mana ramp and even fast mana. I kinda wish I didn't have to though. There's no thought or interest in doing that; 2-mana ramp is just strong.

[WWolfe]

Ban a few cards that are way too expensive for the format, mostly the cEDH stuff because it's completely against the spirit of the game, mana crypt, ban this mfking Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite because f- this -2/-2, and maybe Sheoldred and Braids while we're at it. (yeahhh I'm kinda salty over these 3 specifically)

I'm not sure that banning expensive stuff makes a lot of sense, and certainly not from a game design point of view. Mind you, if I had my way, I'd have everything be reprinted into the ground anyway. The whole idea of some cards being $$$ feels a bit too Ponzi scheme to me.

Some stuff has been banned previously because cost. The Power 9 cards basically.

If they did that today, what would the "cutoff" be and what would it hit? Likely the OG Duals, Gaea's Cradle...but do you take it to the point that it hits Mana Crypt?

[anjinsan]

Are the eight of the Power 9 that are banned banned because of cost, or because of, you know, power? There are more expensive cards that aren't banned.

Banning on price seems like a poor idea from a mechanics point of view but it's also problematic in general since cards don't have a fixed price, it's whatever you can persuade someone else to give you for one (particularly since their "value" is purely as collectors' items). Even if there's an established market price, that fluctuates over time and with reprints. It would be weird for cards to become banned or unbanned as supply and demand changes.

[Landale]

Are the eight of the Power 9 that are banned banned because of cost, or because of, you know, power? There are more expensive cards that aren't banned.

https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/banned-list/

Ancestral Recall was originally banned for poor optics, rather than power level.  While it’s plenty powerful, it’s the effect on perceived barrier-to-entry that really posed a problem because casual players watching Commander games in passing could reasonably assume that they needed hundreds (now thousands) of dollars in Power-9 mana as table stakes, just to join the format. Ancestral Recall was an iconic and expensive card at the time it was banned, and removing it from the card pool was intended to combat the notion that Commander is a prohibitively expensive and inaccessible format.
--
Black Lotus was originally banned for poor optics, rather than power level. Players watching Commander games in passing could reasonably assume that they needed hundreds (now thousands) of dollars in Power-9 mana as table stakes, just to join the format. Black Lotus was an iconic and expensive card at the time it was banned, and removing it from the card pool was intended to combat the notion that Commander is a prohibitively expensive and inaccessible format.
--
The five coloured Moxen were originally banned for poor optics, rather than power level.  While they’re fairly powerful, it’s their effect on perceived barrier-to-entry that really posed a problem because casual players watching Commander games in passing could reasonably assume that they needed hundreds (now thousands) of dollars in Power-9 mana as table stakes, just to join the format. The Moxen were iconic and expensive cards at the time they were banned, and removing them from the card pool was intended to combat the notion that Commander is a prohibitively expensive and inaccessible format.
--
Time Walk was originally banned for poor optics, rather than power level.  While it’s plenty powerful, it’s the effect on perceived barrier-to-entry that really posed a problem because casual players watching Commander games in passing could reasonably assume that they needed hundreds (now thousands) of dollars in Power-9 mana as table stakes, just to join the format. Time Walk was an iconic and expensive card at the time it was banned, and removing it from the card pool was intended to combat the notion that Commander is a prohibitively expensive and inaccessible format.

[WWolfe]

Are the eight of the Power 9 that are banned banned because of cost, or because of, you know, power? There are more expensive cards that aren't banned.

Banning on price seems like a poor idea from a mechanics point of view but it's also problematic in general since cards don't have a fixed price, it's whatever you can persuade someone else to give you for one (particularly since their "value" is purely as collectors' items). Even if there's an established market price, that fluctuates over time and with reprints. It would be weird for cards to become banned or unbanned as supply and demand changes.

Landale beat me to providing the link, but they were banned because of "barrier to entry" optic. So the precedent has been set.

Back to my question, if you go by that logic where do you set the threshold and to your point....what basis do you use for the scale?

[anjinsan]

Yeah they said that but those reasons make as little sense as any of the others. And “originally” banned for poor optics may have been true at some point, but is anyone unbanning Time Walk if its price somehow miraculously drops?