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English-language Forums => Commander Discussion => Topic started by: robort on June 10, 2021, 08:10:51 pm
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Since nobody really brought it up yet on decks here is Sheldon Menery at it again...
https://articles.starcitygames.com/select/top-20-commander-cards-in-modern-horizons-2/
Modern Horizons 2 reinforces that Wheels are the unhealthiest thing in Commander, with cards like Dauthi Voidwalker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dauthi+Voidwalker) and Sanctifier en-Vec (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sanctifier+en-Vec) (and Gaea’s Will (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gaea%27s+Will), I suppose). This is of deep concern to me, and is going to undergo a great deal of thought. Banning an entire class of cards is awkward at best, potentially politically suicidal at its worst. I know that folks love Wheels, so it gets even more difficult. There seem like no good answers at the moment, but I’d really like to look for them. Hey, you asked for more transparency, so there’s a good window into my head (note that the rest of the RC may not share my views on this particular subject).
I know Sheldon responded to this because people called him out on it but c'mon Sheldon lets use that noggin of yours. Seems like Sheldon got shut down (butt hurt) from a Narset, Parter of Veils (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Narset%2C+Parter+of+Veils) or Hullbreacher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Hullbreacher). It was so unfun having to discard my cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) which would have allowed me to cast Solemn Simulacrum (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Solemn+Simulacrum) and that ruined all of my plans.
Now wheels aren't the unhealthiest thing in commander not even close. With Commander being the biggest format in Magic now along with more and more people coming to play. I don't really see anything that is really unhealthy at all. There is diversity of players, decks, places to play commander especially since we are coming out of the covid era. Commander is just getting stronger but by saying something that "X" is the most unhealthiest thing about commander is nuts.
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I'm not sure if tutors qualify as the "unhealthiest thing". But I think tutors are certainly worse than wheels.
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If anything, I'd say 5 color goodstuff commanders are the worst thing in magic. Definitely not wheels. You can argue that tutors make decks run too smoothly, but plenty of decks can't function without tutors.
Sheldon just plays commander differently than most players, then has an outsized effect on the rest of us.
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While I think some tutors just make a deck the same time and time again. But if by definition that "search for a card" is the right definition then anything all the way down to say a evolving wilds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Evolving+Wilds) would be also problematic. Even some commanders allow you to search for a card per example lets use Godo that allows you to search for an equipment so Godo is a tutor on a stick. Even the 5-color good stuff commanders mostly use tutors so yes tutors I could see as problematic. I think it comes down to what type of tutors are we talking about?
If I was actually going to name something problematic. Is the "communication" between all players. To ask questions such as "What type of deck we running", "Do you guys mind if I use proxies", "Do you guys mind if I use this deck this time around because it is fun to me but it could be very problematic for you" and so forth..
As for Sheldon he just seems that everyone must play and do exactly as he does or you get this type of post from him about problematic wheels
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As for Sheldon he just seems that everyone must play and do exactly as he does or you get this type of post from him about problematic wheels
I'd much rather an article than an impulse (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Impulse) banning. Fortunately, the rules committee takes a slow approach to the ban list and doesn't make hasty decisions (exception: Lutri). Unfortunately, there are also times where something should be done and nothing is (The Walking Dead (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Walking+Dead), waiting 4 years to ban Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)). I'll take an article with poor grammar over a wide ban on all wheels.
I've been paying attention to this discussion through the rules committee discord. A couple things stand out.
- Wheels are in no danger of getting banned.
- The rules committee has a good relationship with WotC, and will frequently block certain card designs. Not much discussed about what has been blocked, but it was hinted that WotC has been trying to get hybrid mana into commander for a while now.
- Side note: Godwin's law (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) now applies to Trump and his supporters, not just Hitler and Nazis. It was a weird discussion.
Also, there is going to be a part two to the statement about wheels.
(https://i.imgur.com/gt8oHNu.png)
A chance at redemption. Stay tuned.
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I just wanted to say that I think that the Rules Committee and Sheldon do a pretty great job in general, despite the fact that I don't agree will all of their banning decisions.
Bannings are quite rare, and the ban list for EDH is actually pretty short if one thinks about the sheer quantity of cards that are legal in the format (although I would still remove some of them).
Sheldon made a poor choice of words in that article, and people overreacted. But clearly they're not going to ban all wheels in the near future, and they never will.
I think that it's unfair to depict Sheldon Menerys as some sort of salty baby that runs to ban a card as soon as he loses to it in game, and that in general he and the other members of the RC are doing a pretty great job managing the format.
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Recently, my wife and I have watched through the T.V. show Lost (only 17 years late!).
One of the big takeaways we both had was how much shite could have been avoided if people spoke plainly and frankly instead of always talking in elusive riddles.
Sheldon is the Ben Linus of MTG. Or maybe he's more of a Jacob character. I'm not sure, but I digress.
I daresay it's not deliberate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Deliberate); he is, by many accounts, a nice guy so I doubt he's going out of his way to piss people off.
But my god, sometimes the things he says, and the way he says them, I can't help but think "just take a little extra time and explain what you mean properly".
You would have thought that by now, as an intelligent and well educated man in a position of relative power and influence over Magics number 1 format, he'd have learnt that his words have weight, and that even flippant comments will be analysed and scrutinised, and that an extra small amount of effort to explain things properly would go a long way to avoiding all kinds of smoke monsters.
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I am by no means saying that Sheldon gets salty and thinks ban hammer. However he does get salty and on occasion loves to post stuff where he just rants without half a thought. If I recall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Recall) correctly he got salty over Torment of Hailfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Torment+of+Hailfire) and made some thread about these types of cards shouldn't be played in commander. It is also proven that he definitely should choose what he writes because he is one of the creators of commander. Even in his response to Morgantor the words "all the problems" isn't exactly correct. I am thinking problems? Commander is the #1 format right now so where are these supposive problems? They could be more like minor issues but it certainly isn't problems.
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Wheels are, quite literally, what make many Commander decks "go round". Think Rielle the Everwise (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rielle%2C+the+Everwise), Nekusar the Mindrazer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nekusar%2C+the+Mindrazer) (a personal favorite), Niv-Mizzet Parun (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Niv-Mizzet%2C+Parun), etc...
In my personal, unprofessional opinion, I feel that banning wheels and thereby excluding a whole subclass of deck would be a lot worse for the format than the cards themselves. There are plenty of nasty combos out there and just because they win games quickly doesn't mean they should be banned. Played normally (without a Hullbreacher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Hullbreacher) I mean) wheels are usually great! Refilling every player's hand is usually welcomed, especially when games are going slowly and people don't have much to play in hand. It also "levels the playing field", removing one player's card advantage temporarily and helping others out.
Side note: This is NOT an argument for Warp World (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Warp+World). I hate that thing.
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Here's the update:
https://articles.starcitygames.com/select/top-5-current-commander-concerns/
We started to get into difficulties when Wheels gained offensive value. In the olden days, there may have been a few cards, like Underworld Dreams (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Underworld+Dreams), Phyrexian Tyranny (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Phyrexian+Tyranny), and Spiteful Visions (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Spiteful+Visions), which took advantage of Wheels, but we hadn’t gotten into difficult territory just yet. Nekusar, the Mindrazer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nekusar%2C+the+Mindrazer) is when things started getting oppressive, and we’ve amped it all the way up to Hullbreacher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Hullbreacher) since. Wheels as overpowered offensive weapons have indeed reached a crisis state; when we really boil (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Boil) it down, though, we find that Wheels are a symptom, not the underlying disease. The cards that make Wheels aggressive are the real concern here.
Redemption!
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I honestly like Sheldon a little less every time I read something he's written.
He always comes across as whiny and holier-than-thou about anything he doesn't like in commander. As if anyone who isn't trying to resolve a Draco (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Draco) on turn 15 as their big play (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Big+Play) for the game is unfairly marginalizing all of the "fun" decks.
I think jank decks and high powered decks have their place. It's not for me to tell people how to have fun. Instead of shaming people who like running lots of ramp or doing oppressive things with wheels, it seems the RC would better serve the community by coming up with better guidelines for Rule Zero discussions.
"Remind players, many of whom will suggest that Commander’s philosophy is gate-keepy, that they’re the ones erecting barriers."
Except the commander philosophy IS often gate-keepy. The community often has a decided distaste for cEDH. It's often not stated directly, but many players discuss deck building as though any strategy other than winning by complete accident or basically constructing the Legacy Weapon (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Legacy+Weapon) out of chair-themed jank pieces is sacrilege.
It just feels like Sheldon wants commander to be for everyone, as long as everyone likes to play magic the way he wants it to be played.
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You would have thought that by now, as an intelligent and well educated man in a position of relative power and influence over Magics number 1 format, he'd have learnt that his words have weight, and that even flippant comments will be analysed and scrutinised, and that an extra small amount of effort to explain things properly would go a long way to avoiding all kinds of smoke monsters.
I'm pivoting on my previous take. I think Sheldon is very aware of the weight his voice carries and he just uses it to shill.
All of this mystery and ambiguity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ambiguity) drives people towards reading his articles, and that's what earns him money. I get it, but it's frustrating as a consumer.
If we look at his interaction with Morganator and his astonishingly obvious luke warm take of "wheels are inherently fine, but there are other things that can make them oppressive", all I'm left thinking is how easy it would have been to include that take in his response to Morganator.
"Wheels are inherently fine, but other cards can make them oppressive. I will expand on this in my article next week" is a perfectly reasonable response to a perfectly reasonable question, but it doesn't encourage traffic towards next weeks article as the question has already been answered.
That seems like the biggest driving force behind the way Sheldon interacts to me.
And, to be clear, if I could could get paid to be ambiguous on social media and write a weekly article of "water is wet" level takes, I absolutely would. He's hit upon an excellent business model. You kind of have to respect it in a way.
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And, to be clear, if I could could get paid to be ambiguous on social media and write a weekly article of "water is wet" level takes, I absolutely would. He's hit upon an excellent business model. You kind of have to respect it in a way.
When I hear the name "Sheldon" my first instinct is "COOPER!" but then someone adds "Menery" and I get all upset. I do not understand how someone can build such a reputation of vagueness, ambiguity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ambiguity) and borderline misinformation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Misinformation). I really don't like this person, I don't think he has the courage to either maintain a laid back laissez-faire style of ban list management or a more hands-on approach like WotC does. Sheldon is just a weird mixture of scare tactics (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scare+Tactics) and empty promises.
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It just feels like Sheldon wants commander to be for everyone, as long as everyone likes to play magic the way he wants it to be played.
I think this sums it up. He doesn't see it as gate-keeping because he's not trying to keep anyone out; he thinks everyone should be welcome to play how he wants, so checkmate. It's extra weird to claim that he's not gate-keeping in an article that includes a whole section outlining what's wrong with players from other formats and why "aggressive reinforcement of our philosophy" is the solution. But no, people who want to play Llanowar Elves (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Llanowar+Elves) are the real gate keepers (Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is okay because he likes it, so just drop it already).
And I get it. I'm the jankiest janker that ever lost a game. I'd love it if people would play slower to let me find my magical Christmas land. But they don't owe me that just because I choose to play sub-optimal cards for the fun of playing them. That's the compromise we make; it's a balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) between the fun of winning and the fun of doing silly things. But Sheldon seems to want to not feel pressure to optimize, which is fair, while also being as successful as people who do, which is not. That's... just not how it will ever work, and it's a weird approach to try to put a ceiling on how good people are allowed to be at the game.
Not entirely related, but it feels strange to gripe about cards being powerful when used outside their "intended" purpose. I... are we playing the same format?
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Gonna be the contrarian here and focus on what I liked about Sheldon's article.
- I like the fact that they have an eye on "full package" commanders, such as Golos, Korvold and Chulane. It seems that Wizards learned from their past mistakes and is not doing this as often, but man do I have a problem with commanders that are both payoff and enabler in a single package. They just tend to push out of the formats other commanders within the same strategy / colors and I think that that's sad.
- I also think it's great that they're keeping an eye on Reserved List cards. The prices of some of those have gone completely insane, and they're going to hurt the format in the long run, especially since not all palygroups/LGSs are proxy-friendly. I would love to have a Gaea's Cradle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gaea%27s+Cradle) or a Survival of the Fittest (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Survival+of+the+Fittest) for some of my decks, but I don't want to spend those kind of prices on cardboard: Therefore, some cards that are legal in the format are off-limits for me, which feels bad. Moreover, this problem will only get worse as time passes.
All in all, Sheldon will always be a steward of the most "casual" form of Commander, and you can't expect him to be otherwise really. Thus, he will of course not love the currents within EDH that leads the format on a more competitive side. However, this doesn't mean that the Rules Committee is trying to tell us that we can't play high-power EDH or cEDH. They even recently called Jimmy Lapage from the Spike Feeders to be a part of the Commander Advisory Group, which shows that they hold in high consideration the point of view of the more competitive players.
In the end, whatever Sheldon or other members of the RC say won't change the fact that we can play EDH however we like to, and that's why we love this format so much.
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In the end, whatever Sheldon or other members of the RC say won't change the fact that we can play EDH however we like to, and that's why we love this format so much.
This is a good reality check.
And am also glad that he pressures Wizards against printing "full package" commanders. I would much rather see higher design standards from the start rather than banning cards for "philosophical" reasons that often feel subjective. And I do respect his position on the Reserved List (i.e. he's not responsible for a deal that Wizards cut with collectors).
I do, however, think that with Wizards pushing commander into the mainstream and adding a ton of players with diverse motives and backgrounds, it would be great if Sheldon relied less on what he thinks is fun as a valid metric for changes. He generates a lot of unease in the community because he gives the impression of someone with a certain amount of influence who does not consider his positions carefully. If he wants to just officiate his janky little corner of the game, he can do whatever he wants. But if he wants to influence how game events are run and what cards get printed, then he loses the right to say "just imo lol". He's gotten a lot more power than he started with, but I haven't seen his philosophy grow to include that. He mentions that he's conscious of it, but then he writes that he's thinking about the logistics of banning wheel spells when he is specifically not.
I guess I feel that enforcing low-power is not the same as casual. Plansewalker commanders are casual. Proxies are casual. Free mulligans are casual. I don't think Sheldon wants casual; I think he wants commander to play the same way as when we were playing with Chromium (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Chromium), and that's not really on the table anymore.
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And, to be clear, if I could could get paid to be ambiguous on social media and write a weekly article of "water is wet" level takes, I absolutely would.
Hot diggity damn (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Damn) that's a sentence and a half.
I never had respect for Sheldon tbh. I follow the banlist and that's it.
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Well at least he starts off good this time and quoting Sheldon "here were probably some days when just some of my judge friends and I were playing and we had no worries at all. It’s probably too easy to be idealistically and even naively nostalgic about those bygone times."
After reading the article you're demeanor in the article shows and tells otherwise.
Then the next quote " I want to make sure that you understand that these are concerns, not problems, and will be addressing them that way—with the caveat that the final one is likely drifting into the problem area."
You can get rid of this notion right now because it was you Sheldon that said it was problems not the community. So drop any hint of being snide/crass and accept the fact you were the one who said there was problems.
Last quote "A few weeks back, I somewhat hyperbolically suggested that Wheels (Wheel of Fortune (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wheel+of+Fortune), Windfall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Windfall), et al.) were Commander’s most pressing issue. "
You didn't somewhat suggested . You actually did suggest that it was the most pressing issue. I continually see you having this issue of apologizing when you make mistakes.
Onto Wheels " One of them was the Wheel problem (as in cards that combo really well with Wheels are bad), " Ahem I thought it was a concern not a problem. Make up your mind cause it is becoming confusing when you go back and forth.
"The good news is that the RC gets to see cards as they come down the pipeline, giving us opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opportunity) to call out things that we see as potentially problematic." Again with problem not a concern.
Then he switches back and starts calling things concerns.
This puts it all in a nutshell "Although folks are doing a pretty good job of self-selecting into the style of games they like and having good Rule 0 chats, and there’s help from various online services, matching in untrusted games (those in which the players don’t know each other) is still a bit of a concern."
Sheldon is continually trying to live the glory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Glory) days of when you first started playing. The nostalgia of those days can be remembered but you need to accept the fact that the format has changed a lot since those glory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Glory) days. With more cards to choose from, more players to play the game, with more games happening. Commander has evolved from those glory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Glory) days. To continually to try to reel it back into those formal glory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Glory) days is your downfall Sheldon. I say embrace it with open arms. While the community is bigger then when you first initially started. You need to trust the community to do the right thing. Isn't that what rule 0 is about trusting us to do the right thing?
You can monitor commander and even show concerns about it. But allow the community to do their own thing. Allow us to have our glory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Glory) days as well. I want commander to be happy and healthy as well but I can't and won't look over my shoulder wondering if you are watching because you can't trust me or trust the community.