Deckstats Forum
English-language Forums => Commander Discussion => Topic started by: anjinsan on April 23, 2023, 11:44:10 pm
-
All (not-terrible) Commander decks run ramp. Lots of it. Mana rocks, Three Visits (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Three+Visits), Llanowar Elves (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Llanowar+Elves), whatever.
Now, there's a trade-off to ramping. It usually costs you cards, and it certainly costs you mana up front; it's an investment, that you hope pays off later. This is why Standard decks don't ramp so often: aggro decks exist, so you don't always have time, plus the ramp in Standard these days is worse than all the stuff that's accrued in Commander over the years. But, in Commander, everyone ramps. Even my Umori "oops all planeswalkers" deck ramps (albeit badly).
We still have that trade-off; some decks want to ramp more than others. But does this mean that ramp is, essentially "too good"? Are we wasting card slots on ramp when the game could either not have such good ramp options or just give them to us for free? Does the variability provided by ramp add to the game, by giving us more ways to get unlucky (as if mana screw (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Screw) wasn't enough... but still, serious question).
What would EDH look like if, say, only 3-mana rocks exists (and worse dorks/land ramp/etc)? Wizards are apparently only really printing those for Standard from now on; are they onto something?
-
I wouldn't say ramp is too good, outside of maybe the highest end decks where you run nearly every 0 mana ramp you can.
You have twice as many players with twice as much health each and decks roughly twice as large. The games are already quite long, no need to make it any longer by hamstringing mana.
-
I'm not sure I'd say that ramp is too good as such, but my opinion towards ramp is definitely changing.
Commander is a an interesting format where it concerns ramp. Typically a commander is integral to a deck's strategy so you're going to want to get your commander out as early as possible and ramp is the best way to do this. This rule is fairly applicable to most decks but there are exceptions.
One thing that is noteworthy about ramp is that it's only ramp if you continue to hit your land drops. You're not ahead on mana if you play an arcane signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) on two but miss a land drop on three. With that in mind, for some decks I've have started leaning more towards cheap cantrips and draw spells rather than ramp pieces, and so far I've been happy with the results. Many cheap draw spells allow me to hit my land drop pretty much every turn but I've also found myself in situations where I just hit the ramp part of my deck and have loads of mana with no cards and nothing to do with it on far fewer occasions. The draw spells keep the wheels turning and are far more desirable to draw in the late game than a rampant growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rampant+Growth).
This is not something I'd advocate for every deck or in every meta, but I'd certainly recommend giving it a try in decks that are typically slower or where there is more benefit to a commander that enters the battlefield later. For example, my DJ Scarab God deck is happy to wait until the late game to cast my commander, so I'm not concerned with racing him out and find that the draw spells are better for sculpting my game plan (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Game+Plan).
It all comes down to the trade off that you mention Landale. Sometimes the trade off is worth it, but I'm definitely finding that ramp is probably overvalued compared to card draw on more occasions than I would have first thought.
-
TL;DR: "Fast mana" (i.e. Moxes and Crypt), Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), Birds of Paradise (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Birds+of+Paradise), and Wild Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wild+Growth) are all "good." Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) is generally an auto-include, and cards like Land Tax (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Land+Tax) and Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tithe) can be incredibly useful. Beyond that, it's all mostly situational.
To the points already made, it's kind of a prisoner's dilemma: if you don't run ramp but everyone else does, you might fall behind in development. If you run it but nobody else does, you might find yourself behind in card advantage. If nobody runs it, the game might take longer. If everyone runs it, then the only thing that matters is who ramps hardest and/or most efficiently.
The answer really is "it depends," not only on deck construction (if you're a landfall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Landfall) deck or have a 6 CMC commander, then it's definitely good to have) but also on what constitutes ramp and how you define good. If you're talking mana rocks, then generally I only consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) ones of CMC two or less to be "good;" rocks that are 3 CMC or greater are quite situational (3-for-1 is not very efficient, Thran Dynamo (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thran+Dynamo) is OK for slow decks at 4-for-3, and almost nobody runs Gilded Lotus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gilded+Lotus) anymore at 5-for-3). Even in 3+ color decks, I will typically only run Coalition Relic (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Coalition+Relic) or Relic of Legends (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Relic+of+Legends) because of the upside. The Talismans and Signets are more efficient. Fast mana, like the Moxes and Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) are objectively good and almost required if you want to play competitively. Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is as well because it is net one mana by itself, basically a poor man's Crypt. I'm of the belief that you never have to justify its inclusion, but rather need to find a very good reason not to run it. I feel like almost every deck should probably also run Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet).
Mana dorks are typically only a green thing, but do exist in other colors. The problem with them is that, as creatures, they are far more susceptible to removal than any other form of ramp. If they don't pay for themselves quickly, you'll end up going net negative. Birds of Paradise (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Birds+of+Paradise) is the premier mana dork. 1-for-1, and it taps for any color. If you can run Birds in the deck, you should. Then there are all the elves (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Elves) that tap for one. Still at 1-for-1, they are very efficient ramp, but don't do a whole lot else unless you're playing elf ball or Raggadragga or something like that. Worst case, you can use them as chump blockers. There are more beyond that, but the more costly they are to play, the more situational they become.
Ritual effects, which serve as a one-off ramp, are very situational. In competitive where speed matters, they tend to be more prevalent and important to get you to the one important thing you need to cast. The slower or more casual the deck becomes, the less useful they become. Exceptions are things like Mana Geyser (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Geyser), which tends to be more of a spell that ends games than one that is used for ramp. Good for competitive or if they enable a big turn, but not super helpful otherwise.
Mana doublers can be considered ramp too. Prominent in black with things like Crypt Ghast (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Crypt+Ghast), they're great in mono-black and maybe two-color decks with black, but outside of that you basically have to have an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Urborg%2C+Tomb+of+Yawgmoth) out for them to be of any value. There are things like Zendikar Resurgent (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Zendikar+Resurgent), Nyxbloom Ancient (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nyxbloom+Ancient), and Caged Sun (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Caged+Sun). The problem with them is that their casting cost is typically so high that they are just "win more" cards; if you already have seven mana to cast a Nyxbloom, you probably don't need to be tripling your mana and could be doing other things to further your board state. There are also effects like Extraplanar Lens (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Extraplanar+Lens) and Gauntlet of Power (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gauntlet+of+Power), but they're kind of niche; both end up potentially benefiting your opponents. That being said, I have a Maga, Traitor to Mortals (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Maga%2C+Traitor+to+Mortals) deck that runs every single mana doubler and functional copy of Cabal Coffers (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cabal+Coffers) it can because the point of the deck is to make as much mana as possible and then cast X kill spells. I even run Doubling Cube (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doubling+Cube).
Then there's white ramp, which we just don't talk about. All it does is make sure you are on parity with other players in terms of land count. You won't get ahead with it, but you won't fall behind either. Notable exception is Smothering Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Smothering+Tithe). Salty card or not, if you're playing white and can run it, you probably should. Unless it gets removed immediately, it very quickly spirals out of control and puts you so far ahead, even if only for one turn. I guess it's kind of like a riskier ritual in that sense.
Green has a number of Auras that enchant lands to ramp. I wouldn't necessarily consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) them "good" because they typically aren't the most mana efficient and don't thin your deck as much as a Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate), but they can pay for themselves faster if you're able to use them the same turn you cast them, and they can help with color-fixing. Wild Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wild+Growth) is probably the best one of these. Another 1-for-1, and if you have a land and at least one other green mana, it pays for itself the turn it comes down.
If you're referring to traditional Rampant Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rampant+Growth) type spells or extra land drop effects like Exploration (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exploration) in green, then yes, it is too good. Top of the Storm-scale, Wizards plz ban. The playgroup that got me into Magic (one person in particular) likes green a little too much... between a landfall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Landfall) deck and an Azusa deck replete with Eldrazi (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Eldrazi) titans, it goes without saying that I'm biased against it. I still run it though usually; in two- or three-color decks with green, I almost always run at least Rampant Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rampant+Growth), Three Wishes (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Three+Wishes), Nature's Lore (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nature%27s+Lore), and Sakura-Tribe Elder (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sakura-Tribe+Elder), throwing in Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) and Kodama's Reach (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Kodama%27s+Reach) depending on the curve. The best thing about the latter two are that they also put a land to hand, so you can at least guarantee that you won't miss a land drop for one turn.
I almost never run spells that only put lands into hand. That's not ramp, just deck thinning and making sure you don't miss drops. It's paying mana without getting any back in return unless you can play the additional lands. The only exceptions I can think of are Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tithe) and Land Tax (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Land+Tax); if you don't go first, they let you keep a one-land hand because you're guaranteed to not miss your drops for at least the next two or three turns (respectively). Gift of Estates (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gift+of+Estates) is also OK, but it's two mana and you can only cast at Sorcery speed.
-
I guess I am actually asking two questions here.
Firstly, are some individual ramp cards "overpowered" in that they're basically auto-includes in every deck and objectively the best cards to use in (almost) all situations? There's a pretty strong argument for this, because who doesn't run e.g. Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet), etc?
Secondly, is there are reason why this might actually be a good thing (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=A+Good+Thing), or at least not a bad thing?
The games are already quite long, no need to make it any longer by hamstringing mana.
Length of games is definitely a potential reason... but I'm not convinced. For one, EDH has been getting faster and faster, and it's already really fast. Games often end turn 6 or earlier. And yes, if we think of non-cEDH decks this may not be true, but if we're thinking of games where people are already deliberately not using the best ramp (or the best ways to make use of that ramp) then we're dodging the original question.
Also, games that go on for 8 turns aren't necessarily all that longer than games that go on for 6 turns if the first two turns are just "land, pass". It doesn't seem like a brilliant design for a game, having the first three turns always just be "land, pass", but it's also not the biggest deal since it's over in, like, seconds. (Actually, the question is how much aggressive early plays would become more favoured if nobody was popping off turns 2-4)
One thing that is noteworthy about ramp is that it's only ramp if you continue to hit your land drops. You're not ahead on mana if you play an arcane signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) on two but miss a land drop on three.
This is a very good point, but I think the matter is actually a bit more nuanced. Firstly, missing a land drop after playing a rock is often not really any worse than just having put a land in there, because you often don't have anything impactful to play turn 2 anyway. Secondly, the point of ramp is to be able to do bigger stuff sooner. Land, Land+Signet, miss a land is not great, but Land, Land+Signet, Land, miss a land is way better than playing four lands in a row, because you can cast a four-drop turn three. So long as we have at least one turn where we're ahead on mana, even if we end up behind again afterwards, we've gained something and it might potentially be worth it.
P.S. MDFC lands and Abundant Harvest (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Abundant+Harvest) / Dig Up (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dig+Up) are great.
To the points already made, it's kind of a prisoner's dilemma: if you don't run ramp but everyone else does, you might fall behind in development. If you run it but nobody else does, you might find yourself behind in card advantage. If nobody runs it, the game might take longer. If everyone runs it, then the only thing that matters is who ramps hardest and/or most efficiently.
This isn't quite true, I think. I'm arguing that ramping is just the better option; if you run it when nobody else does, what actually happens is that you just win. That card advantage trade-off is a thing, but the whole point I'm making is that the balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) is way skewed in EDH to the point that it's clearly in favour of ramping, unlike in, say, Standard.
Then there's white ramp, which we just don't talk about. All it does is make sure you are on parity with other players in terms of land count. You won't get ahead with it, but you won't fall behind either.
This is a total tangent, but I think you're not running the right white land ramp, then. I've played many a game with a monowhite deck where I've easily outramped even the green deck. Try these cards: Cosmic Intervention (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cosmic+Intervention), Brought Back (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Brought+Back), Stoneforge Mystic (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Stoneforge+Mystic), Open the Armory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Open+the+Armory). Never worry about lands again.
-
I guess I am actually asking two questions here.
Firstly, are some individual ramp cards "overpowered" in that they're basically auto-includes in every deck and objectively the best cards to use in (almost) all situations? There's a pretty strong argument for this, because who doesn't run e.g. Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet), etc?
You mentioned them. As I said, basically any permanent that goes net positive the turn it comes down is probably an auto-include. Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), Moxes, and Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) are the ones that come to mind and that you'll find in just about any competitive deck. Beyond that, you'd be hard-pressed to find many mono-colored decks that wouldn't run its respective medallion, but nothing else really comes to mind as being "overpowered" in general.
For one, EDH has been getting faster and faster, and it's already really fast...
Also, games that go on for 8 turns aren't necessarily all that longer than games that go on for 6 turns if the first two turns are just "land, pass". It doesn't seem like a brilliant design for a game, having the first three turns always just be "land, pass", but it's also not the biggest deal since it's over in, like, seconds.
Yes, but it depends on the playgroup. The LGS I go to has commander play open to the public every Saturday night, and the power level of decks that people bring varies quite widely. Sometimes, a game will end just as you said, but I've been in plenty of games that for one reason or another get drawn out well over an hour and into double-digit turns. The longer the game is going to be, the better off you'll be if you ramp, I think.
...I think the matter is actually a bit more nuanced. Firstly, missing a land drop after playing a rock is often not really any worse than just having put a land in there, because you often don't have anything impactful to play turn 2 anyway. Secondly, the point of ramp is to be able to do bigger stuff sooner. Land, Land+Signet, miss a land is not great, but Land, Land+Signet, Land, miss a land is way better than playing four lands in a row, because you can cast a four-drop turn three. So long as we have at least one turn where we're ahead on mana, even if we end up behind again afterwards, we've gained something and it might potentially be worth it.
I completely agree, but I think "potentially" is the keyword there. If being up on mana for potentially only one turn is the goal, then ritual effects should be more prevalent than they are outside of competitive formats or just generally good cards like Jeska's Will (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jeska%27s+Will). I think the bigger question is how impactful the ramp will be long-term. If it means you can get your bomb down two turns earlier, that's probably just as good - if not better - than a 3-drop rock netting you one "extra" mana per turn. The other thing to look at is how quickly the ramp will pay itself off. Bounce lands are a good example. Sure, you're getting down a land that taps for two, but it effectively takes two turns to be worthwhile because you're giving up one mana the turn you play it to gain two the following turn. Tap a land, return it with a tapped bounce land = 1 mana; next turn play the bounced land = 4 mana. Land, play another basic = 2 mana; next turn play another basic = 3 mana. It's 1+4 or 2+3. You're actually shorting yourself a mana the first turn to have the same total amount over two turns (and only one additional mana beyond what you would have otherwise on the second turn). Only on the third turn are you actually ahead. With rocks, dorks, or a Rampant Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rampant+Growth), they still take a turn or two to pay for themselves, but you're at least still casting something and not shorting yourself on the front end.
I'm arguing that ramping is just the better option; if you run it when nobody else does, what actually happens is that you just win. That card advantage trade-off is a thing, but the whole point I'm making is that the balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) is way skewed in EDH to the point that it's clearly in favour of ramping, unlike in, say, Standard.
I agree. That's partially why I prefaced each thing with "might;" generally speaking, if you have more mana than your opponent, you'll stand a better chance of winning. The trade-off only ends up not in your favor if you ramp too much, which I guess is kind of hard to do in a 100 card format.
Then there's white ramp, which we just don't talk about. All it does is make sure you are on parity with other players in terms of land count. You won't get ahead with it, but you won't fall behind either.
This is a total tangent, but I think you're not running the right white land ramp, then. I've played many a game with a monowhite deck where I've easily outramped even the green deck. Try these cards: Cosmic Intervention (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cosmic+Intervention), Brought Back (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Brought+Back), Stoneforge Mystic (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Stoneforge+Mystic), Open the Armory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Open+the+Armory). Never worry about lands again.
I meant that more as a joke, though it is true that most white "ramp" just focuses on maintaining parity. I'm not sure how Cosmic Intervention (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cosmic+Intervention) and Brought Back (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Brought+Back) constitute ramp unless you are returning something like a fetchland to the field, which might or might not be the most efficient use of those cards (although it is something I hadn't thought of before, mainly because I don't run fetchlands. Now that they're relatively affordable, I might have to pick some up and give this a try... Thanks!). However, Stoneforge Mystic (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Stoneforge+Mystic) and Open the Armory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Open+the+Armory) as a consideration for "ramp" I definitely don't understand, unless you're grabbing Sword of the Animist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sword+of+the+Animist). What am I missing? I don't run mono-white frequently because most of the commanders don't fit my play style, but I run enough white in most of my decks that I'm relatively familiar with its "ramp" options.
-
Beyond that, you'd be hard-pressed to find many mono-colored decks that wouldn't run its respective medallion, but nothing else really comes to mind as being "overpowered" in general.
You don't run Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet)? Guild signets? Talismans? Mana dorks, Three Visits (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Three+Visits), Nature's Lore (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nature%27s+Lore)?
Yes, but it depends on the playgroup. The LGS I go to has commander play open to the public every Saturday night, and the power level of decks that people bring varies quite widely. Sometimes, a game will end just as you said, but I've been in plenty of games that for one reason or another get drawn out well over an hour and into double-digit turns. The longer the game is going to be, the better off you'll be if you ramp, I think.
My point is, I don't quite buy the argument that the format is too slow and needs ramp to speed it up if, when we put in all the ramp, we end up with very fast games. Of course, many (most?) people don't play cEDH - but we can't really use that for determining the power level of a card or mechanic (it's a bit like saying "Card X is not overpowered because some people choose not to play it, when deliberately playing weaker-than-optimal decks").
I completely agree, but I think "potentially" is the keyword there. If being up on mana for potentially only one turn is the goal, then ritual effects should be more prevalent than they are outside of competitive formats or just generally good cards like Jeska's Will (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jeska%27s+Will). I think the bigger question is how impactful the ramp will be long-term.
Well, Jeska's Will (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jeska%27s+Will) is practically an auto-include in most decks with red, so it's super prevalent but, at any rate, I was simply pointing out ramping but missing land drops isn't always purely bad; a ritual effect is a lot narrower and less powerful than pure ramp, but it's still a valuable thing that people often choose to run all by itself.
Bounce lands are a good example. Sure, you're getting down a land that taps for two, but it effectively takes two turns to be worthwhile because you're giving up one mana the turn you play it to gain two the following turn. Tap a land, return it with a tapped bounce land = 1 mana; next turn play the bounced land = 4 mana. Land, play another basic = 2 mana; next turn play another basic = 3 mana. It's 1+4 or 2+3. You're actually shorting yourself a mana the first turn to have the same total amount over two turns (and only one additional mana beyond what you would have otherwise on the second turn). Only on the third turn are you actually ahead.
I don't think bounce lands work like that...? With bounce lands, you aren't up any mana at all; you have a land that taps for two, but it put you down a land when it entered. Bouncelands are really card advantage rather than ramp.
... unless you are returning something like a fetchland to the field ... unless you're grabbing Sword of the Animist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sword+of+the+Animist).
Yeah you've pretty much figured it out.
Brought Back (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Brought+Back) is a bit fiddly to use as pure ramp, but its ceiling (as a ramp spell) is a two-mana instant-speed double-Three Visits, which is way better than anything green has. Sevinne's Reclamation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sevinne%27s+Reclamation) is like a poor man's Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate). But both of these have utility outside of being ramp spells - they're a bit less good overall as pure ramp but they do what you really want ramp spells to do (and which most don't) which is turn into card advantage or other utility late-game. Cosmic Intervention (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cosmic+Intervention) is a pretty premium piece of protection but you can actually double-return fetchlands with it (they come back EoT but the effect is, for an instant, still in effect, so you can crack them again and have them come back again). This suite also combos quite nicely with Crucible of Worlds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Crucible+of+Worlds), which lets you replay those lands from your graveyard as your regular drops.
White also has Flagstones of Trokair (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flagstones+of+Trokair), which combos with a couple of things - primarily Cleansing Wildfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cleansing+Wildfire) comes to mind, for which you need red too, but also Lotus Vale (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Lotus+Vale) type lands (which also work with Brought Back (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Brought+Back) effects and Crucible of Worlds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Crucible+of+Worlds)).
White's ability to tutor for equipment better than any other colour offers it Sword of the Animist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sword+of+the+Animist), Sword of Hearth and Home (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sword+of+Hearth+and+Home), Sword of Forge and Frontier (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sword+of+Forge+and+Frontier), and now Bitterthorn, Nissa's Animus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bitterthorn%2C+Nissa%27s+Animus), as well as things that make treasures. This is way slower than most ramp but if it sticks around can net you much more in the long run (plus, things like Sword of Blink (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blink) and Ramp have other benefits too).
-
You don't run Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet)? Guild signets? Talismans? Mana dorks, Three Visits (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Three+Visits), Nature's Lore (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nature%27s+Lore)?
I do, but the question was about "overpowered" ramp. I mentioned Birds of Paradise (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Birds+of+Paradise) should be run if it can, and I put Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) in just about everything. Neither is overpowered, just good. Dropping a Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) on turn 1 can very easily set you far enough ahead that you'll run away with the game. The same cannot really be said about Birds.
My point is, I don't quite buy the argument that the format is too slow and needs ramp to speed it up if, when we put in all the ramp, we end up with very fast games. Of course, many (most?) people don't play cEDH - but we can't really use that for determining the power level of a card or mechanic (it's a bit like saying "Card X is not overpowered because some people choose not to play it, when deliberately playing weaker-than-optimal decks").
I'm not disagreeing. It probably is that, on average across all levels of play, EDH has gotten faster than what it has been in the past. I think ramp probably serves to speed up what would be slower games more than it has any significant impact on already fast games. It's skewing the lower end of the distribution in terms of game length more towards the median, if you will. In terms of whether that can be used to determine the power level of a mechanic, you yourself said that what tends to happen if you run ramp and everyone else doesn't is you just win. If that's the case, then yes, I'd say ramp is a strong mechanic. I think maybe we're just missing each other on what constitutes "good" or "overpowered." Ramp isn't game-breaking, but we've established that it gives you a noticeable advantage over your opponents who don't use it.
Well, Jeska's Will (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jeska%27s+Will) is practically an auto-include in most decks with red, so it's super prevalent but, at any rate, I was simply pointing out ramping but missing land drops isn't always purely bad; a ritual effect is a lot narrower and less powerful than pure ramp, but it's still a valuable thing that people often choose to run all by itself.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an auto-include, but it is a very spiky card. Otherwise we're in agreement here.
I don't think bounce lands work like that...? With bounce lands, you aren't up any mana at all; you have a land that taps for two, but it put you down a land when it entered. Bouncelands are really card advantage rather than ramp.
You're absolutely right. My "math" was completely off. You put yourself down one mana the turn you play a bounce land, but you have the same amount of mana you would have otherwise with just basics because the bounce land taps for two. Guarantees you don't miss a land drop and keep a card in your hand, but that's it.
... unless you are returning something like a fetchland to the field ... unless you're grabbing Sword of the Animist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sword+of+the+Animist).
Yeah you've pretty much figured it out.
See, I'm not that dumb. ;D I just don't play with fetches enough to have picked up on it initially.
-
I do, but the question was about "overpowered" ramp. I mentioned Birds of Paradise (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Birds+of+Paradise) should be run if it can, and I put Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) in just about everything. Neither is overpowered, just good. Dropping a Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) on turn 1 can very easily set you far enough ahead that you'll run away with the game. The same cannot really be said about Birds.
...
I think maybe we're just missing each other on what constitutes "good" or "overpowered." Ramp isn't game-breaking, but we've established that it gives you a noticeable advantage over your opponents who don't use it.
"Overpowered" doesn't necessarily mean that a card will let you run away with a game itself. Admittedly, the term is a little difficult in a game where cards are by design not entirely balanced against each other, but if a card is so good that it beats every other card you could put in that slot, in pretty much every deck, that does kind of suggest that it might be a bit too good, no?
As for whether it's "game-breaking"... well, not much is, really, since the game keeps on functioning, but game-warping? Yeah. Ramp is clearly that; you can't not run a decent amount of it and expect to be anything like competitive.
You're absolutely right. My "math" was completely off. You put yourself down one mana the turn you play a bounce land, but you have the same amount of mana you would have otherwise with just basics because the bounce land taps for two. Guarantees you don't miss a land drop and keep a card in your hand, but that's it.
Yes, although, since we were talking about monowhite ramp options: Karoo (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Karoo) / Guildless Commons (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Guildless+Commons) (or Lotus Field (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Lotus+Field) types) + Strict Proctor (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Strict+Proctor)? 8)
-
As for whether it's "game-breaking"... well, not much is, really, since the game keeps on functioning.
Islands. Enough said. :P
Yes, although, since we were talking about monowhite ramp options: Karoo (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Karoo) / Guildless Commons (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Guildless+Commons) (or Lotus Field (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Lotus+Field) types) + Strict Proctor (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Strict+Proctor)? 8)
Now that's what I call ramp. 😆
-
Now that's what I call ramp. 😆
Hey, that may sound a bit like magical Christmas land, but there are decks that might want to run both anyway (if you're doing "Brought Back (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Brought+Back)" style ramp, you may want Lotus Field (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Lotus+Field), Lotus Vale (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Lotus+Vale) for that, and the bouncelands are much-needed card-advantage in white - though it's sad that the monocoloured ones are particularly poor). It's certainly funny if you can pull it off. :D
-
This whole thread is a great argument for always using Path to Exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Path+to+Exile) on one of your own creatures. It works best if you stare your opponent in the eyes while you do it, to show dominance.
-
Full disclosure and confession: I didn't read the entire thread.
As others have stated low MV ramp is always effective. We're talking up to MV 1, I'd say. Other than that I've seen myself do the opposite in my most casual decks:
- Increase land count, e.g. instead of 35 I run 38 lands.
- Increase low MV draw density to find my lands.
- Hit land drops till turn 6-9.
- Have mana sink-esque extra land drops such as Thawing Glaciers (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thawing+Glaciers) or Terrain Generator (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Terrain+Generator) that don't take up slots from the deck or serve multiple functions.
- Have mana doublers, e.g. Extraplanar Lens (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Extraplanar+Lens) or Caged Sun (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Caged+Sun).
This setup has worked for me in slower games. Since I tend to build slower decks with high card velocity it works out great. Let's remember that ramping on turn 2 with an Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) and subsequently missing your land drop on turn 3 does not put you ahead anyone in terms of mana. I feel like it's occasionally better to hit the land drops all the way till the end of the game and reserve the free'd up slots for more low to the ground card advantage and selection.
Having a bunch of draw is very beneficial because it lets you do anything your deck wants. You get lands, ramp (in case you still have a decent number) and gas. The numbers for me have shifted from 36 lands + 12 ramp + 10 draw to 38 lands + 3 ramp + 17 draw. (Adjust your deck accordingly.) It feels good to have a steady mana flow from lands and there are no dead draws late game. Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) is usually just in the way and not very useful on turn 8. Plus some rummaging / looting effects let you get rid of excess lands if you find yourself flooded.
The math works out as follows:
- With an average number of lands (36), lots of ramp (20) but very little draw (5) you get 1 card per turn and see about 20 cards (7 for starting hand + 10 for turn and 3 for one draw spell) during a game. Of those 20 cards about 7 are lands and 4 are ramp spells netting you about 11 mana per turn in late game.
- With a higher number of lands, very little ramp (5) but lots of draw (20) you get 1 card per turn... Plus a little extra. Here's where it gets interesting. I calculated once that Ponder (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ponder), Preordain (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Preordain), Faithless Looting (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Faithless+Looting), Night's Whisper (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Night%27s+Whisper), incidental cantripping spells, etc. on average let you see 1.7 cards in addition to your card per turn. The draw spells start to chain together. Turn 1 you you've seen 8 cards of which 1.6 are draw spells, turn 2 you see 1+1.7 cards so you have 1.6-1+0.2*20~=1 draw spell remaining, turn 3 you see another 1+1.7 cards (0.5 draw spells remaining), turn 4 you see 1 card, turn 5 you see 1 card, turn 6 you see 1+1.7 cards and so forth till you've seen about 7 + 4*1.7 + 10 = 25 cards by the end of the game. Of those cards 10 are lands (i.e. you hit your every land drop statistically!) and 1 ramp spell netting you the same 11 mana at the end of the game. BUT! You've seen 5 extra cards that could be gas or whatever you need in the moment.
By this logic if your game is very relaxed and casual it might even be better to have copious amounts of draw spells instead of ramp spells. I understand that the cumulative mana count is higher in a ramp-y deck but such a deck runs the risk of running out of cards to play which doesn't happen with a draw heavy deck.
-
This whole thread is a great argument for always using Path to Exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Path+to+Exile) on one of your own creatures. It works best if you stare your opponent in the eyes while you do it, to show dominance.
Give this man a medal.
Better yet, Settle the Wreckage (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Settle+the+Wreckage) targeting yourself.
-
By this logic if your game is very relaxed and casual it might even be better to have copious amounts of draw spells instead of ramp spells. I understand that the cumulative mana count is higher in a ramp-y deck but such a deck runs the risk of running out of cards to play which doesn't happen with a draw heavy deck.
Well, what do you mean by "relaxed and casual"? If you mean, deliberately trying to be slower then, yeah... but is that an argument that ramp is less good, or that ramp is so good that you don't want to use too much of it?
Draw definitely complicates matters, but it's not as simple as ramp vs draw. And, draw doesn't substitute for ramp. It might give you smoother games and hit your land drops, but it doesn't let you play important things early (when they're more impactful). Heck, if you can get a Rhystic Study (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rhystic+Study) or, say, Stolen Strategy (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Stolen+Strategy) out one or more turns early, you're quite possibly drawing even more by ramping than you would have otherwise.
-
By this logic if your game is very relaxed and casual it might even be better to have copious amounts of draw spells instead of ramp spells. I understand that the cumulative mana count is higher in a ramp-y deck but such a deck runs the risk of running out of cards to play which doesn't happen with a draw heavy deck.
Well, what do you mean by "relaxed and casual"? If you mean, deliberately trying to be slower then, yeah... but is that an argument that ramp is less good, or that ramp is so good that you don't want to use too much of it?
Draw definitely complicates matters, but it's not as simple as ramp vs draw. And, draw doesn't substitute for ramp. It might give you smoother games and hit your land drops, but it doesn't let you play important things early (when they're more impactful). Heck, if you can get a Rhystic Study (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rhystic+Study) or, say, Stolen Strategy (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Stolen+Strategy) out one or more turns early, you're quite possibly drawing even more by ramping than you would have otherwise.
Ramp is good but only certain kinds of ramp spells. You don't see anything above mana value 2 in cEDH games. Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) and such are just way too slow. Instead it's more about low to the ground ramp like Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring).
If you relax on the speed a bit and allow for a slower game (than cEDH) it could be argued that at the point where Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) becomes relevant one could instead just have more draw and rely on land drops and drawing into ramp with the excess draw.
According to https://www.cedh.guide/stats we see that an average cEDH deck plays 20 ramp spells and 20 draw spells. That's a nice balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) which is probably the best ratio to have. From what I've seen people usually run way more ramp than they do draw spells.
I'm not sure if playing impactful things early is always the desired outcome. The Command Zone (yes, Morganator) found way back that a turn 1 Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) has a -2% effect on the chance to win. This is because EDH is a multiplayer format where the person in the lead is punished for being in the lead. A turn 1 Rhystic Study (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rhystic+Study) is incredibly powerful but it will also draw a ton of hate which might prove to be detrimental.
Sure, in a vacuum it's best to do your thing early when it has a proportionally bigger effect on the game. A good measure of that is cumulative mana spent which is higher in decks that both ramp fast and hit their land drops than in decks that cannot do that. So... I'm not sure if ramp is too good. However, I do think it's overrated most of the time, especially when it comes to cards like Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate). And particularly when the deck doesn't draw enough or misses its land drops due to a greedy land base.
-
I don’t mean to ask whether the concept of ramp is overpowered; quite clearly, an 8-mana sorcery that just put one land out would be pretty terrible, despite being ramp. Rather, the question is whether the ramp options that we have in EDH are too good. Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) may be overrated, but Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is pretty busted. What if, instead, Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) was the fastest ramp we had, and those rocks and dorks didn’t exist? (As in modern Standards)
-
What if, instead, Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) was the fastest ramp we had, and those rocks and dorks didn’t exist? (As in modern Standards)
At lower power, that would barely change anything. Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) and the like aren't necessarily all that rare outside of cEDH. You'd just consistently not have your Sol Rings and Signets because they're just not there anymore instead of having the occasional game where you start strong.
I suppose it might hit Elf decks hardest, given the loss of so many mana dorks.
-
I'm not sure if playing impactful things early is always the desired outcome. The Command Zone (yes, Morganator) found way back that a turn 1 Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) has a -2% effect on the chance to win.
You know we don't talk about this.
-
I don’t mean to ask whether the concept of ramp is overpowered; quite clearly, an 8-mana sorcery that just put one land out would be pretty terrible, despite being ramp. Rather, the question is whether the ramp options that we have in EDH are too good. Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) may be overrated, but Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is pretty busted. What if, instead, Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) was the fastest ramp we had, and those rocks and dorks didn’t exist? (As in modern Standards)
Uhhh... Yeah? Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is a very representative ramp card. https://edhrec.com/top It's the third most popular ramp card and fourth most popular card overall. Only Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) (understandably) and Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) are more popular. That's my benchmark - what people actually play.
I have written paragraphs on the topic but all fast mana does is generate volatile pods that may or may not end up lopsided. If you play all fast mana you're guaranteed to see some so that's not a problem but if your only piece of fast mana is the Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) you're guaranteed to have some lopsided starts. Some people like that, some don't but that is a true effect Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) has on the game. https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/120jvvk/to_sol_ring_or_not_to_sol_ring_variance_and/ There's the full article for those who are interested.
I don't quite grasp your perspective. I might be missing something. I thought when I said ramp is overrated I also implied it's not too good. In fact I think there are real alternatives to jamming your deck full of Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) and Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet). The alternative is drawing more cards and hitting your land drops. It's not as fast as ramping to eleven on turns 1 and 2 but it's certainly better than having all this mana and nothing to cast.
Let's put it this way: if ramp was overpowered then why aren't people playing like 40 ramp spells in their decks?
-
I thought when I said ramp is overrated I also implied it's not too good. In fact I think there are real alternatives to jamming your deck full of Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) and Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet). The alternative is drawing more cards and hitting your land drops. It's not as fast as ramping to eleven on turns 1 and 2 but it's certainly better than having all this mana and nothing to cast.
Well, I think I disagree. You said you typically run only three ramp pieces, but you still run ramp - and I think most people run a lot more than that. Are there any competitive decks that don't?
Let's put it this way: if ramp was overpowered then why aren't people playing like 40 ramp spells in their decks?
Well, two big reasons: firstly, this is a singleton format with a limited (albeit large) card pool; just because some ramp spells are overpowered doesn't mean that 40 of them are. If you could put 40 Sol Rings in a deck, I doubt people would only put one Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) in a deck. But would they put 40? Probably not, because of the bigger reason, which is that ramp alone doesn't win games. This is true of everything else in Magic! If your deck was all one-mana draw-three spells or two-mana extra-turn spells, you wouldn't actually have any wincon - does that mean that Time Walk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Time+Walk) isn't overpowered? I might run 40 Time Walks but I wouldn't run 98 Time Walks, so clearly there's a limit that has nothing to do with the overall power of the card.
Plus, what people run and what's optimal for people to run are two very different things. People will choose not to play cards sometimes precisely because they consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) them to be "too good", or for any number of other reasons.
I have written paragraphs on the topic but all fast mana does is generate volatile pods that may or may not end up lopsided. If you play all fast mana you're guaranteed to see some so that's not a problem but if your only piece of fast mana is the Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) you're guaranteed to have some lopsided starts. Some people like that, some don't but that is a true effect Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) has on the game. https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/120jvvk/to_sol_ring_or_not_to_sol_ring_variance_and/ There's the full article for those who are interested.
I think this is a good argument for fast mana not to exist, and a good counter to the argument that, well, if everyone's using it it doesn't really matter and is equivalent just to drawing lands and everyone playing them more slowly.
-
I thought when I said ramp is overrated I also implied it's not too good. In fact I think there are real alternatives to jamming your deck full of Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) and Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet). The alternative is drawing more cards and hitting your land drops. It's not as fast as ramping to eleven on turns 1 and 2 but it's certainly better than having all this mana and nothing to cast.
Well, I think I disagree. You said you typically run only three ramp pieces, but you still run ramp - and I think most people run a lot more than that. Are there any competitive decks that don't?
Let's put it this way: if ramp was overpowered then why aren't people playing like 40 ramp spells in their decks?
Well, two big reasons: firstly, this is a singleton format with a limited (albeit large) card pool; just because some ramp spells are overpowered doesn't mean that 40 of them are. If you could put 40 Sol Rings in a deck, I doubt people would only put one Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) in a deck. But would they put 40? Probably not, because of the bigger reason, which is that ramp alone doesn't win games. This is true of everything else in Magic! If your deck was all one-mana draw-three spells or two-mana extra-turn spells, you wouldn't actually have any wincon - does that mean that Time Walk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Time+Walk) isn't overpowered? I might run 40 Time Walks but I wouldn't run 98 Time Walks, so clearly there's a limit that has nothing to do with the overall power of the card.
Plus, what people run and what's optimal for people to run are two very different things. People will choose not to play cards sometimes precisely because they consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) them to be "too good", or for any number of other reasons.
I have written paragraphs on the topic but all fast mana does is generate volatile pods that may or may not end up lopsided. If you play all fast mana you're guaranteed to see some so that's not a problem but if your only piece of fast mana is the Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) you're guaranteed to have some lopsided starts. Some people like that, some don't but that is a true effect Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) has on the game. https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/120jvvk/to_sol_ring_or_not_to_sol_ring_variance_and/ There's the full article for those who are interested.
I think this is a good argument for fast mana not to exist, and a good counter to the argument that, well, if everyone's using it it doesn't really matter and is equivalent just to drawing lands and everyone playing them more slowly.
I'm sorry, I can't figure out what your stance is. Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?
From what I've gathered thus far:
- 40 copies of Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is excessive
- Lots of ramp is good, though
- Having draw spells is somehow not a part of this conversation
- Competitive decks are the golden standard except when they're not
Let's not consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) competitive EDH. That is not what people play most of the time. It has its own established meta and there isn't much to say about it. You run 20 ramp spells, 20 draw spells, a couple of efficient win conditions, fill the rest of the deck with interaction and you're pretty much good to go. That's the formula.
For slower games (=not competitive) the golden standards are Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) and Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet). This is what people play. For Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) you can make a case. Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) in my opinion is straight up bad, overrated and useless when compared to a decent draw spell that enables a land drop and draws you gas on top. Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is a draw spell but it can't find win conditions because basics don't finish games.
If everyone has fast mana all is good but what I'm trying to say here and in the article is that Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) as a single inclusion is "too good" - not because it statistically somehow warps the gameplay on average but because in reality the person with the Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is rocketed so much ahead that the game becomes lopsided. And unfun for some folks. And that it's surprisingly common how often this happens.
You need to make up your mind when you say "ramp". I honestly don't know whether you mean Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), fast mana in general, Llanowar Elves (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Llanowar+Elves), Rampant Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rampant+Growth) or Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate). The answer is different for all of those depending on the scenario you're in. Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is "too good" as a single inclusion at a casual table but it's also a must in a cEDH deck. Even if everyone is running Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) the randomness of drawing it in an opening hand messes up 1/4th of your games. Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is popular but really bad outside of the slowest metas and certainly not cEDH viable despite it being a very popular card.
I would cut Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) when playing in a low power meta, I would cut Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) for a draw spell any day and even Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) often feels "meh" because it's more than often a dead draw late game. I think that's the issue here for me: a draw spell is never dead but a Rampant Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rampant+Growth) is very much dead in the late game.
Yes, it's all about the balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) but the reason I'm pushing draw here is because in my experience people don't have a good balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) of draw and ramp - instead people have way more ramp than they do draw.
Also my claim is that land drops are underrated as a form of securing mana later in the game. Depending on your pod it's not always necessary to power through stuff on turn 3, it might be enough to get it all out a turn later without sacrificing much. To be clear the previous statement also reads as follows: "trading cards for lands might be an actively bad thing to do in some situations in which case ramping might be a bad thing meaning ramp is definitely not too good". The upside of dedicating more slots to draw is that you have more interaction and gas in addition to your land drops compared to having a ramp spell.
Does that clarify anything?
-
From what I've gathered thus far:
- 40 copies of Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is excessive
- Lots of ramp is good, though
- Having draw spells is somehow not a part of this conversation
- Competitive decks are the golden standard except when they're not
Draw spells aren't banned from the conversation, but you can't simply directly compare ramp spells with draw spells. And anyway, I'm pretty certain (convince me otherwise) that replacing all your ramp spell with draw spells is suboptimal; I absolutely take your point about dead late-game cards, but on balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) it's a drawback that's worth taking.
We do have to consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) competitive decks. I don't play cEDH, but when you're asking "is this card too powerful?" you cannot simply answer "no, because I will choose not to play it in casual games". Indeed, a lot of the time people are choosing not to play those things because they are too powerful. Now, obviously, there's something about metas, but if all cEDH decks are running like 20 pieces of ramp it rather suggests that ramp is pretty key to making the most powerful deck.
Nobody cares about Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate). Yeah, it's popular. Yeah, it's not very good. But, there are many ramp cards that are much better than Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate); it's not "the golden standard", it's an overplayed card, and how much it actually gets played isn't really relevant. I think we can say that Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is probably not "too good", but how about all those things that are better than it?
I honestly don't know whether you mean Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), fast mana in general, Llanowar Elves (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Llanowar+Elves), Rampant Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rampant+Growth) or Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate).
Apologies if this wasn't clear. Generally, all of these are considered to be ramp - they are things that can get you more than you would normally have by playing your regular one land per turn. Fast mana I think we would say is anything that instantly gives you back more mana than you spent so that probably includes rituals (which I don't think we would count as ramp, since they're one-shot) but also fast ramp like Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring).
Also my claim is that land drops are underrated as a form of securing mana later in the game. Depending on your pod it's not always necessary to power through stuff on turn 3, it might be enough to get it all out a turn later without sacrificing much. To be clear the previous statement also reads as follows: "trading cards for lands might be an actively bad thing to do in some situations in which case ramping might be a bad thing meaning ramp is definitely not too good".
Yeah, these are both true, but neither of them stops ramp being the optimal choice.
-
Nobody cares about Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate)... how much it actually gets played isn't really relevant.
Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that's blatantly incorrect. Literally over half a million decks minimum run it, so clearly people do care about it, regardless of whether you think it's good, or even whether it is actually objectively good. Also, how often something is played is absolutely relevant. If a card is that ubiquitous, there's a reason for it. You yourself referenced "auto-include" cards and asked whether running something in a majority of decks per se makes it good:
...but if a card is so good that it beats every other card you could put in that slot, in pretty much every deck, that does kind of suggest that it might be a bit too good, no?
Either the card is in so many decks because it is good, or it's good because it's in so many decks. Alternatively, it's monetarily a very inexpensive and accessible card that does what people want it to do, so it sees play more often than something that might be objectively better but more expensive and is "good" in that sense. In any case, it wouldn't be so widely played if it wasn't at least situationally good.
Ultimately, context matters, and I feel like that's being dismissed in this discussion. For instance, if you're playing a landfall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Landfall) deck and/or haven't played a land per turn and would otherwise miss your drop, then Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is definitely stronger than it would be in just about any other situation and is a good card in that moment.
The longer the thread carries on, the more it seems like you're trying to split the baby here; you seem to be arguing that that ramp is in fact "too strong" - which presumably means that it's necessary to run it - while at the same time saying the format is fast enough as it is so it's not needed and that certain ramp is bad and shouldn't be played even though it's incredibly popular. Obviously, some cards are better than others, but if a mechanic as a whole is "too strong," you'll be hard-pressed to find a reason to argue against playing it of it outside of deck optimization (why play Explosive Vegetation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Explosive+Vegetation) when Circuitous Route (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Circuitous+Route) or Migration Path (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Migration+Path) exist unless you are building the deck around those kinds of effects) and monteary cost.
-
Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that's blatantly incorrect. Literally over half a million decks minimum run it, so clearly people do care about it, regardless of whether you think it's good, or even whether it is actually objectively good. Also, how often something is played is absolutely relevant.
How so? The question isn't even "is Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) good?"; if it were, you could argue that it's played a lot because it's good, but we all know that there are lots of reasons for cards to be played or not played, and it's quite possible that it's just overrated (which is in fact the stance that, so far as I can tell, everyone in this thread so far is taking). But the actual question is "are the best ramp options too good?" and if you don't think that Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is as good as those, then it's not something we're even considering.
If a card is that ubiquitous, there's a reason for it. You yourself referenced "auto-include" cards and asked whether running something in a majority of decks per se makes it good:
There's a subtle difference there: a card being run a lot suggests that it's probably quite good. But, that's why I'm asking, do people think that ramp is too good in EDH? Furthermore, I'm talking about a category of cards. A whopping 49% of EDHrec decks that can run Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) do... but how many run any ramp spell? 100%? Are there any that we consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) remotely viable decks that don't run any? Plenty of people would claim that a deck with Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) would be better without it... how many people would claim that any given deck would be better off it you removed all the ramp entirely?
Either the card is in so many decks because it is good, or it's good because it's in so many decks.
You what? How does playing something a lot make it good?
Ultimately, context matters, and I feel like that's being dismissed in this discussion. For instance, if you're playing a landfall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Landfall) deck and/or haven't played a land per turn and would otherwise miss your drop, then Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is definitely stronger than it would be in just about any other situation and is a good card in that moment.
Lots of things can be "a good card in a moment". 6-mana sorcery-speed removal can be pretty great in a lot of moments. That doesn't mean anyone is arguing that those are the most powerful cards.
Besides, this whole confused discussion about Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) seems to be a massive distraction. The previous argument seemed to be "ramp isn't too good because Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) isn't too good" and I said, OK, but there are plenty of things that are better than Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate). Now you seem to be saying,
actually, Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is great. Well OK, doesn't that imply, then, that the things that are better than Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) are, like, really good, possibly too good? Or are you saying that Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is actually Magic's best ramp spell?
The longer the thread carries on, the more it seems like you're trying to split the baby here; you seem to be arguing that that ramp is in fact "too strong" - which presumably means that it's necessary to run it - while at the same time saying the format is fast enough as it is so it's not needed and that certain ramp is bad and shouldn't be played even though it's incredibly popular.
I don't really understand the confusion here. Who said the format is fast and so ramp is not needed? And, as I've just elaborated, popularity is really irrelevant and some ramp spells can be bad without making all ramp spells bad. I kind of thought that that was obvious.
Are you getting confused by the fact that I asked what a version of EDH would look like without the fastest/best ramp, and proposed that it would be fine? That's a separate question to whether ramp in the format as it exists now is good or not.
Let me go back to what I was originally asking and attempt to clarify:
1. Do we think (the best) ramp is good? Everyone runs ramp, and so far as I can tell the accepted wisdom is that it's the best thing to do. The most competitive decks in the format use large amounts of ramp and, even at non-cEDH tables, the ability to explode early and achieve an unassailable lead requires ramp. I certainly cannot imagine doing the most powerful things decks can do without more than the normal one mana per turn. No, ramp is not sufficient to win, but I would argue that it is necessary. So I am arguing for yes on this one, but willing to be challenged.
Note that we are not talking about any specific ramp spell. You can look at the world's worst ramp spell and say, nope, not good but that doesn't say anything really about this question; we're talking about using good ramp vs no ramp at all. Heck, a lot of those bad ramp spells probably are still better than not having any at all.
2. If 1. is true, and ramp is so good to be ubiquitous, is that a problem? My proposition (something to be discussed) is that, actually, EDH would be better without it. These spells take up slots in the deck, introduce (unneeded and possibly excessive/unhealthy) variance, and don't really add anything to the game. If it were tuned to the point where it were more of a balanced trade-off, such that some decks would want and run ramp but others might put in none at all, would the format be more interesting? It would also likely be slower, which I propose is also no bad thing.
This is, actually, pretty similar to the proposition in MustaKotka's Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) article (not that you alone should not run ramp and expect to have a good game, but that perhaps your whole table should not run it, and have more fun).
-
This is a fun topic! I feel like it's a Rorschach test for how people understand the game.
tl;dr Ramp exists because some people want to do the thing, but faster, so faster ramp will always be more desirable to them. Everyone else plays ramp to the degree that they still want to win sometimes, but no one actually has to if it's not fun for them or they don't need it.
To specifically address your questions:
1. Do we think (the best) ramp is good? Everyone runs ramp, and so far as I can tell the accepted wisdom is that it's the best thing to do. The most competitive decks in the format use large amounts of ramp and, even at non-cEDH tables, the ability to explode early and achieve an unassailable lead requires ramp. I certainly cannot imagine doing the most powerful things decks can do without more than the normal one mana per turn. No, ramp is not sufficient to win, but I would argue that it is necessary. So I am arguing for yes on this one, but willing to be challenged.
I don't think the question can really be whether it's "good" on its own. No ramp is necessary to cast all the big EDH spells if you are willing to wait. You are guaranteed to eventually hit your max power if you live long enough. The reason people ramp is because the game has a timer they can't wait for: the game ends when one player locks in their wincon. You don't ramp so you can cast spells; you ramp so you can cast spells sooner than your opponents. If you play against slower decks, then you have more freedom to play slower. If you play against fast decks, then you need to be fast in order to win. Most people try to play as fast as possible because we don't know the speed of the deck we're playing against. If Deck 1 is playing 5 Manalith (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Manalith) variants and Deck 2 is a direct copy but with the Manaliths swapped for Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet), Mana Vault (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Vault), etc., Deck 2 is probably going to win because it does the same thing but sooner (that's just going to be a reality in a game where some cards are better than others - better cards will win). But if Deck 1 has no ramp and instead has more redundant cards for their strategy, then there really is a trade-off in choosing how much ramp to include. Deck 1 would be gambling that a greater density of useful cards will outweigh a slower average start, and Deck 2 would be gambling that they will hit only enough ramp to act sooner without replacing useful card draws with useless ramp.
2. If 1. is true, and ramp is so good to be ubiquitous, is that a problem? My proposition (something to be discussed) is that, actually, EDH would be better without it. These spells take up slots in the deck, introduce (unneeded and possibly excessive/unhealthy) variance, and don't really add anything to the game. If it were tuned to the point where it were more of a balanced trade-off, such that some decks would want and run ramp but others might put in none at all, would the format be more interesting? It would also likely be slower, which I propose is also no bad thing.
I think you are making an unfounded logical leap (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Leap) here. Saying it is good is not the same as agreeing that it is ubiquitous, and something being ubiquitous does not make it a problem. You say EDH would be better without it, but it sounds like you mean it would be slower without it, and slower is somehow better. The issues that you mentioned, deck slots and variance, seem like strange issues since this entire format is designed with 40 extra card slots and is singleton to increase variance. This is the lots-of-cards-high-variance format. I guess I would suggest that creating a high-variance format where these cards are legal is the whole point of EDH. So to say that they are bad for the format makes me wonder (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wonder) if maybe it's the format itself that is the issue.
Don't get me wrong. I hate how fast the game is nowadays. I like my games to take an hour or more, and all my games are definitely faster now than they were, say, 10 years ago. I don't really like the standardization of decks that comes when people feel like they have to include the same suite of good ramp in every deck, and I agree that it would be a lot more fun, casual, and janky if we had more room for niche cards. But that's also all my own fault because I'm trying to win as well as have fun. There is no authority that forces me to play fast except the knowledge that another player might. The reason EDH has become more "solved" is because we are all actively trying to solve it against each other. If you aren't playing a big 8-drop Elder Dragon with a three-color upkeep cost because you know you'll lose before you ever cast it, then you've already made choices to play smarter to win the game. Observing that one strategy will typically defeat (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Defeat) another strategy is not the same as being forced to adopt that strategy. Only a desire to win does that. I remember Sheldon's main argument against fast mana boiled down to "I don't want to play fast mana and I lose to people who play it, but I would also like to win, so can people not play it and let me win". And the response that will always get is, "No, I want to win so I'm going to", which is why we will always be in this position. (Side story: last night I cut Nissa, Who Shakes the World (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nissa%2C+Who+Shakes+the+World) for Woodland Druid (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Woodland+Druid) in my Seton deck and it made me feel ruthless. I am not immune to lure (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Lure) of fast mana.)
As for ramp being a balanced trade off with some decks wanting it and others not, I would say that's already the case. I think we're in agreement that ubiquity is not quality, so the fact that everyone runs Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) doesn't mean every deck benefits optimally from running it. My Nicol Bolas (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nicol+Bolas) has 9 pieces of ramp, including Mana Vault (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Vault), Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), and Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet), and every one of them hurts because it's taking a slot away from another fun giant sorcery. My Tuya Bearclaw (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tuya+Bearclaw), which wins a lot more often, has 2 ramp cards (Domri, Anarch of Bolas (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Domri%2C+Anarch+of+Bolas) and Caravan Vigil (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Caravan+Vigil)) because there is a trade-off between drawing mana versus useful cards, and she tops out at 3 cmc and wants the cards. I've never felt that deck needed a Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring).
It sounds like you are saying that fast mana puts restrictions and pressures on deckbuilding that aren't fun, and I think a lot of people would agree. In the end I don't quite understand why it should be a conversation about whether the whole idea of ramp as a game mechanic is good. Certainly the variance and restrictions caused by ramp are nowhere near the variance and wasted slots caused by the land/mana system in general, right? It seems like, if anything, the ramp strategy exists primarily to smooth out the effects of that design choice.
-
Deck 2 is probably going to win because it does the same thing but sooner (that's just going to be a reality in a game where some cards are better than others - better cards will win). But if Deck 1 has no ramp and instead has more redundant cards for their strategy, then there really is a trade-off in choosing how much ramp to include. Deck 1 would be gambling that a greater density of useful cards will outweigh a slower average start, and Deck 2 would be gambling that they will hit only enough ramp to act sooner without replacing useful card draws with useless ramp.
I think what this all boils down to, though, is that the faster-ramping deck is probably still stronger overall?
I think you are making an unfounded logical leap (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Leap) here. Saying it is good is not the same as agreeing that it is ubiquitous, and something being ubiquitous does not make it a problem.
There's no leap (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Leap). So far as I can tell, ramp is good and ubiquitous (and is ubiquitous because it's good). As for whether it's a problem... well, that's rather what I was hoping to discuss! It being ubiquitous sounds like a problem to me because, if all decks are doing it, why is it there at all? What's it actually adding to the game? (I don't mean ramp in general, I mean ramp that every deck wants to use)
You say EDH would be better without it, but it sounds like you mean it would be slower without it, and slower is somehow better.
Yeah, I think so - for all the reasons you mention yourself.
The issues that you mentioned, deck slots and variance, seem like strange issues since this entire format is designed with 40 extra card slots and is singleton to increase variance. This is the lots-of-cards-high-variance format. I guess I would suggest that creating a high-variance format where these cards are legal is the whole point of EDH. So to say that they are bad for the format makes me wonder (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wonder) if maybe it's the format itself that is the issue.
This is a fair argument, and to a certain extent I think it is the format. Everyone has 40 life and there are usually more players, so games are by default slower than they would have been (all other things being equal), which in turn makes ramping more attractive than, say, aggro. But, with the huge card pool, the ramp options available are a lot stronger than they are in, say, Standard (with its 20 life and 1v1 nature).
However, the variance thing is I think a bit more subtle than that. Being a 100-card singleton format, I think, is probably meant to increase variance in a fun way - as in, sometimes you see this card, sometimes you see that card. You don't normally get the same combination of cards together, so every game is different (not that that worked out, given how many tutors and combo wins there are, but that's the idea, right?). That's not the same, though, as "sometimes you don't draw any lands, do nothing for the whole game, and just lose" or "sometimes you get 7 mana by turn 2 and just win".
Certainly the variance and restrictions caused by ramp are nowhere near the variance and wasted slots caused by the land/mana system in general, right? It seems like, if anything, the ramp strategy exists primarily to smooth out the effects of that design choice.
Ah, now we're talking! Frankly, I think there's a strong argument that lands are one of the worst things about Magic's design... but they're also pretty integral to the format these days. I was hoping we'd see more MDFC lands, as they were a really neat design.
Ramp, though, I think makes the issues worse, not better. We can imagine that with just lands, we have three possible situations: not enough lands, enough lands, and too many lands (which is only an issue because that means fewer nonland cards). With ramp, though, we have more situations: not enough lands or ramp, ramp but not enough lands (so the ramp kind of makes up for the missed drops, at a price), lands but no ramp, OK, fine, lands and ramp, which is even better, and of course still too many lands/ramp. Perhaps the middle situations become more common, but the extremes become more extreme: the difference between missing some lands drops and getting way-above-curve mana is a lot bigger than just that between missing and hitting one land per turn.
-
Besides, this whole confused discussion about Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) seems to be a massive distraction. The previous argument seemed to be "ramp isn't too good because Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) isn't too good" and I said, OK, but there are plenty of things that are better than Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate). Now you seem to be saying,
actually, Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is great. Well OK, doesn't that imply, then, that the things that are better than Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) are, like, really good, possibly too good? Or are you saying that Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is actually Magic's best ramp spell?
I made no claims about its power level; I said neither that it was great nor that it was bad, and nobody is claiming that it is the best ramp spell in the game. What I said was that it is a very popular ramp spell that is situationally impactful, and there must be some merit to running it for as popular as it is or else it wouldn't be that popular. MustaKotka is originally the one who said Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is too slow. In general, I might agree with him (similarly to how I think three mana rocks are too slow), but I'd almost rather Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) on curve to guarantee I don't miss a future land drop than Rampant Growth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rampant+Growth) on curve and miss my drop the following turn. When you get down to splitting hairs like that, it's more a matter of personal preference.
I don't really understand the confusion here. Who said the format is fast and so ramp is not needed?
You literally said these exact things. Maybe you didn't intend to say it, but I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to interpret the following.
For one, EDH has been getting faster and faster, and it's already really fast. Games often end turn 6 or earlier. And yes, if we think of non-cEDH decks this may not be true...
My point is, I don't quite buy the argument that the format is too slow and needs ramp to speed it up if, when we put in all the ramp, we end up with very fast games.
If... ramp is so good to be ubiquitous, is that a problem? My proposition (something to be discussed) is that, actually, EDH would be better without it.
I wouldn't mind slower games myself (fast mana is disgusting and the friends that got me into Magic in the first place played way too much green for me to not cringe every time I see it outside of a four or five-colored deck), but I don't think eliminating ramp altogether would solve the problem. I think what you'd find with that is either games would last way longer than they need to because battlecruiser Magic now turns into trying to sink the Bismarck, or games speed up even further because people would shy away from the prohibitively expensive commanders (say 5-6 CMC or more) and play far cheaper, faster commanders (say 2-3 CMC max) who don't need to worry too much about ramp to go off and still effectively win by turn 6-8. I have seen a good number of decks that don't need to ramp at all in order to gain a huge advantage very early. Doing away with ramp would completely eliminate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Eliminate) that middle ground and skew decks to one extreme or the other, leading to even greater power disparities and just some other mechanic that is "too good."
To your point, however, I do agree that ubiquity can be a problem and have to disagree with Valmias to a degree (I will also note that ubiquity is synonymous with popularity, so yes, popularity does factor into the discussion).
Saying it is good is not the same as agreeing that it is ubiquitous, and something being ubiquitous does not make it a problem.
If a card should go in every deck and you actually have to come up with a rationale for not running it as opposed to a justification for running it, then it's probably too good and would serve the format well to be removed. The disagreement I have is that I don't think that can be generalized in the way that you would like to. A single card is much different than an entire mechanic, and it's far easier and more practical to eliminate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Eliminate) individual problem cards than an entire subset of cards in the game. Your argument is effectively that ramp is too good because everyone runs it and you are at a disadvantage if you don't. You can make the exact same argument about card draw, removal spells, or even lands, for that matter. Do you think we should do away with those as well? The more you abstract the question, the less meaningful it becomes.
Frankly, I think there's a strong argument that lands are one of the worst things about Magic's design...
That's honestly one of the things I found intriguing about Hearthstone as opposed to Magic: each player is guaranteed to get one additional mana each turn up to the cap of 10 and can plan turns accordingly (of course, there were still "ramp" effects, namely with the player who goes second getting an extra mana to use once at any point and certain cards in the Druid class (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Druid+Class), and I'm sure there are more now... I stopped playing what must be at least four years ago). Something like that helps improve game consistency. I also liked being able to choose to attack creatures directly instead of face (putting more onus of combat decisions on the attacker instead of the defender), but I digress.
-
However, the variance thing is I think a bit more subtle than that. Being a 100-card singleton format, I think, is probably meant to increase variance in a fun way - as in, sometimes you see this card, sometimes you see that card. You don't normally get the same combination of cards together, so every game is different (not that that worked out, given how many tutors and combo wins there are, but that's the idea, right?). That's not the same, though, as "sometimes you don't draw any lands, do nothing for the whole game, and just lose" or "sometimes you get 7 mana by turn 2 and just win".
Ramp, though, I think makes the issues worse, not better. We can imagine that with just lands, we have three possible situations: not enough lands, enough lands, and too many lands (which is only an issue because that means fewer nonland cards). With ramp, though, we have more situations: not enough lands or ramp, ramp but not enough lands (so the ramp kind of makes up for the missed drops, at a price), lands but no ramp, OK, fine, lands and ramp, which is even better, and of course still too many lands/ramp. Perhaps the middle situations become more common, but the extremes become more extreme: the difference between missing some lands drops and getting way-above-curve mana is a lot bigger than just that between missing and hitting one land per turn.
Okay, I think I understand your position better now!
What it sounds like you're describing as a downside is what I consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) the fun challenge of this game/format. With the ramp situation, it adds a whole lot more fiddly dials and tweaks to alter the deck in a million subtle ways - and it adds a million ways to screw it up if you don't get it right. I find attempting to build around the variance issue caused by land and mana to be a fun part of the deckbuilding puzzle. It's even more complicated when you factor in whether you prefer to hit your land drops consistently or want to ramp fast then stop hitting lands. This calls into question not just ramp, but number of lands, mana curve, draw rate (do you want cantrips or Blue Sun's Zenith (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blue+Sun%27s+Zenith)?), commander cost, tempo etc. I enjoy other methods like Hearthstone and Slay (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Slay) the Spire as well, but managing the scary random element of EDH is a compelling challenge, and I think it is one of the factors keeping the game from being even faster.
I would say people think they need ramp when what they really need is a resource management strategy of some kind, ramp being one option. But not every deck benefits the same from ramp. Someone who would put Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) in literally every deck is wasting slots. Some decks don't need Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) because they don't have a use for colorless mana or they would benefit more from draw or their strategy favors creature-based ramp or their plan is to kill while everyone else is setting up. Sometimes it's a choice of whether your pacing wants Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) or Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate), and other times you just want to hit 4 mana and never draw another land again. Commander selection and deck strategy have a large impact on the kinds of resource management that are needed, and ramp is only one piece of the picture. I disagree that running Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) (or other fast mana) in every deck is always an optimal choice, and I enjoy the fact that not everyone sees it this way. This gives me a chance to test my understanding of the game against theirs, and that's what makes deckbuilding fun for me.
I think what this all boils down to, though, is that the faster-ramping deck is probably still stronger overall?
I guess my position is that the deck that accesses its needed resources faster is probably stronger, but ramp is only the key if access to mana is what is limiting your speed. Sometimes Mana Vault (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Vault) launches you 3 turns ahead and you win; sometimes it sits there waiting for you to draw something good, wishing you'd put in more cantrips or wheels. Some decks are so thirsty for mana there's no real point where you get diminishing returns (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Diminishing+Returns), but most decks that over-stuff on ramp will consistently lose access to value cards.
If a card should go in every deck and you actually have to come up with a rationale for not running it as opposed to a justification for running it, then it's probably too good and would serve the format well to be removed.
I personally don't think it's an issue for all decks to require some attention to the question of how fast it needs to be and how much mana it really needs to work. To me, that falls under the regular learning curve of the game. If a player just chooses to jam in the most popular options, I think they are missing a chance to tailor their deck better. I think it's a positive element of the game to force players to have to consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) that part of the process.
I can understand why a person would think fast mana is necessary (because a lot of people say it is), and I know what kind of un-fun pressures that puts on card choices. But as MustaKotka mentioned earlier in the thread, that much-sought turn 1 Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) has only a marginal, and sometimes negative, impact on performance. I just don't think the pressure is really there to run ramp that you don't want to run, so the restriction is largely propaganda (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Propaganda) by Big Mana. (Either that or I'm just trying to convince everyone else to play slower so I can win.)
-
You literally said these exact things. Maybe you didn't intend to say it, but I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to interpret the following.
I think you could interpret that as what it actually was, not "the format is fast so ramp is not needed" but "the format is fast because]/i] fast ramp exists". I'm also not sure what you mean by "needed"; I don't think we need all the ramp that does exist to exist in order for us to have a good format, but that's different to whether you need to play it as an individual player to keep up with all the other people who are playing it.
I think what you'd find with that is either games would last way longer than they need to because battlecruiser Magic now turns into trying to sink the Bismarck, or games speed up even further because people would shy away from the prohibitively expensive commanders (say 5-6 CMC or more) and play far cheaper, faster commanders (say 2-3 CMC max) who don't need to worry too much about ramp to go off and still effectively win by turn 6-8. I have seen a good number of decks that don't need to ramp at all in order to gain a huge advantage very early. Doing away with ramp would completely eliminate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Eliminate) that middle ground and skew decks to one extreme or the other, leading to even greater power disparities and just some other mechanic that is "too good."
Do you think so?
Battlecruiser I don't think is really affected. Most battlecruiser decks probably aren't running the best ramp anyway, and if they are they're probably suffering the drawbacks far greater without taking best advantage of it. And, they're probably just waiting until they have big amounts of mana to do anything anyway. Even if they are slowed down a bit, are they actually significantly slower, or do they just spend an extra turn at the start going "draw, land, pass"?
You can make the exact same argument about card draw, removal spells, or even lands, for that matter. Do you think we should do away with those as well?
This is true, but these things are a bit different. For starters, lands are all but necessary, just because of the way the game works. Now, actually, we could consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) whether having lands is even a good idea in terms of game design precisely because of the way they work (you mentioned Hearthstone yourself, and it's an interesting comparison), but that's a whole other topic, and anyway it's not like you can simply remove them. Card draw is similar; you could well imagine a version of the game where you just draw more than one card per turn or something so that draw is less necessary and maybe card draw spells are worse to the point that they're less worth it.
But actually, these aren't really analogous, in a way that I think is slightly subtle. Ramp is really designed around one single trade-off: you spend mana now and/or cards in order to get more mana later. Therefore, if the balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) of that trade-off always skews to one side or the other, the whole point of the design is kind of undone. Things like removal, though, are much more complicated in their interactions and can't be so simply reduced to so simple a trade-off. Even there, though, removal does occupy the same space; you're spending cards and mana to do something, and in EDH it's normally bad for you to be the one using the removal, and consequently some decks simply don't run much if any and simply aim to rush to their own victory much faster.
With the ramp situation, it adds a whole lot more fiddly dials and tweaks to alter the deck in a million subtle ways - and it adds a million ways to screw it up if you don't get it right. I find attempting to build around the variance issue caused by land and mana to be a fun part of the deckbuilding puzzle.
Really? It doesn't feel so much like a puzzle, to me, as just an opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opportunity) for games to be ruined. Drawing 7 lands out of 10 cards is not fun. Missing land drops is not fun. And, the nature of the game is such that it pretty much isn't possible to build around it, not to the point that it can't happen to you; there's just too much random chance.
I also don't think it's terribly fun when one player (whomever it is) gets to drop a bunch of rocks and start doing big stuff early when someone else has just been playing like a land per turn. Looking at the table and realising that someone's got three mana per turn whilst someone else has seven always feels bad.
Someone who would put Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) in literally every deck is wasting slots. Some decks don't need Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) because they don't have a use for colorless mana or they would benefit more from draw or their strategy favors creature-based ramp or their plan is to kill while everyone else is setting up.
How many decks can't make use of Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), or can kill people without their own fast mana on turns 1-3?
... most decks that over-stuff on ramp will consistently lose access to value cards.
But "overstuffing" doesn't mean "running any ramp at all". Every deck wants several ramp cards, and yeah, you can have too many, but the equilibrium (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Equilibrium) point for most decks is already at "lots".
so the restriction is largely propaganda (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Propaganda) by Big Mana.
No, big mana is stuff like The Caged Sun (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Caged+Sun) or Zendikar Resurgent (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Zendikar+Resurgent). That's not at all the same as fast mana! (In fact, big mana is usually expensive enough that it is still a meaningful trade-off; something like Doubling Cube (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doubling+Cube) is really too slow most of the time, for example)
-
I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.
What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.
-
Same! As non-native speaker of English: very difficult sentences, guys and girls! I have no idea what you're talking about! I know it concerns mana ramp, Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), possibly the count of lands all in EDH! I know (and you know probably) I'm bit more casual with this format. I respect each and every one of you and have looked at your decks. I might get lotta downvotes, but with these quotes and all the lengthy replies: what the Hell is going on?! What all of you are trying to prove to each other in cEDH?
-
Also ngl, I tried to read everything but ended up skimming after a while because of the repetitive arguments, so forgive me if this has already been talked about. I can't speak for all players, but I really feel like this discussion is missing the dominant point of ramp here. Everyone keeps talking about ramp in terms of acceleration, but as lots of people have correctly pointed out: ramp is much less common in other formats. So we have to ask, why? And I don't think the answer that "edh is splashier and plays bigger spells" is a true one; it just feels true because of how we tend to look at ramp.
In my experience, acceleration is like 30% of it. Sure, every once in a while someone fast tracks a Craterhoof to close out the game too quickly, or a Genesis Ultimatum (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Genesis+Ultimatum) that absolutely takes over the board; however, this is pretty rare for my pod. Moreover, you have three opponents now hyperfocused on cleaning up or disrupting your splashy spell. The way I look at ramp (only since recently) is about access to multi-spelling. In a four person game, you're behind if you're only casting one spell per turn, even if that spell is a really good one. How many times have you been stuck on three mana so you're forced to play one creature and say go, when you really wanted to cast another spell to trigger an ability of that creature? Then, the board gets wiped and you've basically been timewalked. You don't just need access to mana to cast big plays, but also early on to have flexibility.
Outside of fast ramp, which explicitly exists to unfairly put you ahead of your opponents, I think ramp is a necessary component of how multiplayer works. It's inextricable from the format, and if it's removed then you're shoehorned back into kitchen table magic where top decking is the main factor in determining games. Ramp allows you to have strategy in your turns as well as keep open mana for answers to game ending threats that can appear suddenly.
-
I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.
What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.
I have no idea. I think it's just an argument against fast mana, but with all ramp being too fast. I find it a difficult hypothetical to parse, and I feel like the goalposts keep moving.
Anjinsan, if the goal is to have slower games, then you can just play less ramp. If the goal is to beat players faster, and you think you have to use more ramp, then do that. If you think it sucks that you have to use ramp when you don't want to because other people are going to... well, I can't help with that. I personally disagree. I already gave examples of decks that I use with very little ramp that work just fine. If the benchmark is a win on turn 1-3, we're definitely talking about cEDH and that's not typical play. If the argument is that top-tier decks use a lot of ramp, then yes, that's probably the case, but not every deck is meant to be (or ever could be) top-tier.
But in answer to the original question: Is ramp too good? No. What would EDH look like with only weak mana rocks? Currently competitive decks would be slower, and many weaker decks would become fully nonviable (I ain't playing Gabriel Angelfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gabriel+Angelfire) if I have to wait until turn 7 or later). Competitive players would not take the moment to appreciate a slower pace of game, but would push the meta further toward lower-mana strategies, and any commander over 3 cmc would be too slow to seriously consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider). The game would contract to a smaller pool of playable cards, and then we would be on here complaining about low cmc commanders and how we miss the days when we could play big spells. But unless this is actually up for proposal, I don't fully see the point in considering it beyond just ruminating on the function of ramp (which, to be fair, can be fun).
-
Ah. My mistake. Anjinsan, I just looked at your decks to see how you build, and your worst deck would probably beat my best one and be bored doing it. If your decks are reflective of the meta you play in, then I understand your perspective better. I would also wish (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wish) for a world where Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) was the standard for ramp.
I think for a lot of people Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) is the standard. Maybe you just need to build worse decks? That probably doesn't help.
-
I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.
What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.
I have no idea. I think it's just an argument against fast mana, but with all ramp being too fast. I find it a difficult hypothetical to parse, and I feel like the goalposts keep moving.
Sorry, the more precise I try to get with my language, the more long-winded I get. Also trying to address multiple people in a single post at a time doesn't help. In so few words, that's essentially what I was trying to get at earlier. Every time there is an answer provided, it turns out we answered the wrong question, or are challenged on some minutiae in the answer we give. I'm not trying to be adversarial, and I think the discussion has remained largely civil, but it seems like we're talking in circles here.
I think you could interpret that as what it actually was, not "the format is fast so ramp is not needed" but "the format is fast because fast ramp exists".
As I said, that might be what you intended to convey, but it came across as the latter, not the former. In the first quote I cited, all you said was that the format was fast already. You did not mention ramp at all outside of people "deliberately not using the best ramp" to try to slow the game down. In the second quote, your exact words were that you didn't agree with the premise that the format was slow and needed ramp is to speed it up because with it, games are "very fast" - the implication being that games are already fast and ramp just makes them faster yet. But again, we're splitting hairs. Mana go fast is the gist of it.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "needed"; I don't think we need all the ramp that does exist to exist in order for us to have a good format, but that's different to whether you need to play it as an individual player to keep up with all the other people who are playing it.
Are you referring to where I said certain decks didn't need ramp to get ahead early? Pick any 2-drop commander. When Rona, Herald of Invasion (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rona%2C+Herald+of+Invasion) is out, you can loot to ensure your land drops and hit your combos such that it's not necessary to ramp. Besides, when you can dump a Sheoldred, Whispering One (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sheoldred%2C+Whispering+One) into the graveyard, reanimate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Reanimate) it, then copy it with a Spark Double (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Spark+Double) by turn four and just choke (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Choke) everyone else out of the game, sure, having a turn one Mox might let you do it faster, but it's not absolutely necessary (which I believe is the exact argument you made anyway in the aforementioned second quote - and I agree). Fast mana increases the chances of the deck spiking sooner, but it doesn't per se provide any additional consistency to the deck. I'd rather reliably be able to win on turn four than only 20% of the time be able to win on turn three - which is partially why I don't play competitive, because that's almost the exact wrong attitude to take in that format.
To the point about feeling the need to keep up with everyone else, yes, you do need to run it when you're playing more competitive decks, and I see you do that in a not insignificant portion of your decks. That doesn't necessarily mean it's problematic. To Valmias's point, competitive meta will always find a way to play as fast as possible regardless of the restrictions imposed upon it because that is the very nature of the format. If you don't like playing that way, then you either need to have a discussion with your playgroup about the power level of decks that get brought to the table, or (if they don't want to change) find a different playgroup that does not play competitively. That's not to be crass and say, "Suck it up or leave," but that is the reality of the situation. I experienced more or less (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=More+or+Less) the same thing with the group of friends that initially got me into the game, but I won't expand upon the particulars since they're not entirely relevant.
But in answer to the original question: Is ramp too good? No. What would EDH look like with only weak mana rocks? Currently competitive decks would be slower, and many weaker decks would become fully nonviable... Competitive players would not take the moment to appreciate a slower pace of game, but would push the meta further toward lower-mana strategies, and any commander over 3 cmc would be too slow to seriously consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider). The game would contract to a smaller pool of playable cards...
That's effectively what I was saying in the hypothetical situation where ramp were to just disappear (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Disappear) altogether. You'd skew to one extreme or another: faster, cheap-to-cost commanders in competitive or slower, grindy battle cruiser games in more casual settings. There wouldn't be much in between.
-
I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.
What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.
I have no idea. I think it's just an argument against fast mana, but with all ramp being too fast. I find it a difficult hypothetical to parse, and I feel like the goalposts keep moving.
It's not an argument against anything. It's supposed to be a discussion. I'm just saying "hey, do we think that maybe the best ramp cards in EDH are actually better than they need to be?". It's really that simple. For example, Wizards have said they aren't printing any mana rocks cheaper than cmc 3 in Standard sets any more - they obviously think that 2-mana rocks are too good. Well, we have 2-mana rocks in EDH, are they still too good in EDH? It's really that simple.
In the second quote, your exact words were that you didn't agree with the premise that the format was slow and needed ramp is to speed it up because with it, games are "very fast" - the implication being that games are already fast and ramp just makes them faster yet.
Well, apologies for any ambiguity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ambiguity). I was talking about the format, not individual players playing individual games.
Outside of fast ramp, which explicitly exists to unfairly put you ahead of your opponents, I think ramp is a necessary component of how multiplayer works. It's inextricable from the format, and if it's removed then you're shoehorned back into kitchen table magic where top decking is the main factor in determining games. Ramp allows you to have strategy in your turns as well as keep open mana for answers to game ending threats that can appear suddenly.
How does this follow? Not ramping doesn't mean you're more likely to be topdecking (if anything, it's the opposite), nor does it prevent you from having strategy. I don't really see how multiplayer has anything to do with it either - could you elaborate?
Anjinsan, if the goal is to have slower games, then you can just play less ramp.
...
If the benchmark is a win on turn 1-3, we're definitely talking about cEDH and that's not typical play. If the argument is that top-tier decks use a lot of ramp, then yes, that's probably the case, but not every deck is meant to be (or ever could be) top-tier.
Ah. My mistake. Anjinsan, I just looked at your decks to see how you build, and your worst deck would probably beat my best one and be bored doing it. If your decks are reflective of the meta you play in, then I understand your perspective better. I would also wish (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wish) for a world where Cultivate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cultivate) was the standard for ramp.
So... kind of, yeah, but in a way it doesn't matter what decks you're building or playing, because I'm talking about the format as a whole. Admittedly, you could argue that this kind of boils down to "I don't like cEDH, wouldn't it be great if EDH were more like... not that?" but frankly even relatively low-powered games often see a lot of Sol Rings and two-mana rocks, and really (budget or deliberate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Deliberate) handicapping aside) there's no real reason for them not to. My janky Mutant Ninja (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ninja) Turtles deck is no more or less (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=More+or+Less) interesting or janky if it used Manaliths rather than signets.
Now, sure, I can just choose to run worse (or no) ramp, but that's kind of a nonargument; in order for that to work, I need the whole table to agree to do the same - at which point we're essentially playing a modified EDH with a more restricted card pool. And so the question remains: would modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp be "better" or "more balanced" (or whatever) than regular EDH? It's funny because I saw someone on Reddit (I know) complaining about people complaining about things, who said "yeah but some people want to ban cmc 2 mana rocks! That's obviously insane!" but... is it?
Also, I don't know what you mean; all my decks are solid Power Level 7s. 8)
-
So... kind of, yeah, but in a way it doesn't matter what decks you're building or playing, because I'm talking about the format as a whole. Admittedly, you could argue that this kind of boils down to "I don't like cEDH, wouldn't it be great if EDH were more like... not that?" but frankly even relatively low-powered games often see a lot of Sol Rings and two-mana rocks, and really (budget or deliberate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Deliberate) handicapping aside) there's no real reason for them not to. My janky Mutant Ninja (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ninja) Turtles deck is no more or less (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=More+or+Less) interesting or janky if it used Manaliths rather than signets.
Now, sure, I can just choose to run worse (or no) ramp, but that's kind of a nonargument; in order for that to work, I need the whole table to agree to do the same - at which point we're essentially playing a modified EDH with a more restricted card pool. And so the question remains: would modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp be "better" or "more balanced" (or whatever) than regular EDH? It's funny because I saw someone on Reddit (I know) complaining about people complaining about things, who said "yeah but some people want to ban cmc 2 mana rocks! That's obviously insane!" but... is it?
I think you're correct when you say that maybe you just don't like cEDH/high-power EDH. I don't think you can be talking about the format as a whole if you think the experience of ramp is the same in cEDH and lower powered games. You've gotten a lot of feedback on the topic from players who very much don't have the same experience you do. You say there's no reason not to use Sol Rings and two-mana rocks in lower powered games, but we gave a bunch, from the negative benefit from Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) to preferring draw and land drops. But I think the best reason is the one you've been getting at: building the same all the time is boring, and it's fun to mix it up even if that means a marginal drop in effectiveness. At lower power levels you can get away with that without being punished as severely.
Basically, yes you can just choose to run no or worse ramp (like other people do), and that will have an impact on how your deck feels to build and play. You only "need" to have the whole table agree if you think they owe you a win. Some people enjoy playing a more competitive sort of deck, and it seems heavy handed to simply tell people to build their decks to your standard of fun. And isn't that what you are proposing with a cap on what ramp is allowed? You are allowed to play slower if you feel like without making sure everyone else is too, especially if the changes you propose would cripple any deck that isn't already running all best-in-class cards. If you don't like playing in a competitive meta, then maybe talk to your table or investigate some other groups.
You keep asking and people keep saying it: no, a modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp would be neither better nor more balanced than the current rules, partly because it doesn't actually address the root problem, and partly because it ignores a great deal of non-corner cases that would be impacted by the decision. The only thing it would accomplish would be a way to force your table to lower their power level without having to talk to them about it. And it might be a little much to propose that the rules of the whole format be changed for everyone to accomplish this.
-
I feel as though it's got to be one thing or another.
"We don't play fast ramp because we prefer lower-powered games" is akin to saying, yes, ramp is "too good" (whatever that means). Which is fine, but let's just say that, not "ramp is fine if you just don't play it!"
If you're saying, actually, no, there are plenty of mechanically-sound reasons that an optimal deck wouldn't run ramp, then that's a totally different thing... but I am dubious.
You keep asking and people keep saying it: no, a modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp would be neither better nor more balanced than the current rules, partly because it doesn't actually address the root problem, and partly because it ignores a great deal of non-corner cases that would be impacted by the decision.
Well now, this is really what I wanted to get into in the first place! But, why do you say that? If by "the root problem" you're just talking about the general (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=The+General) speed and power level of the format then, well, actually it probably does help with that, though it's hardly a silver bullet. But honestly my point is more just that ramp is all but ubiquitous in a way that doesn't really seem to add anything to the game. You say that EDH-with-worse-ramp would not be better, but let's look at the converse: why is EDH with all this fast ramp better than it would be without?
-
I feel as though it's got to be one thing or another.
"We don't play fast ramp because we prefer lower-powered games" is akin to saying, yes, ramp is "too good" (whatever that means). Which is fine, but let's just say that, not "ramp is fine if you just don't play it!"
If you're saying, actually, no, there are plenty of mechanically-sound reasons that an optimal deck wouldn't run ramp, then that's a totally different thing... but I am dubious.
No, I don't think anyone is saying they intentionally nerf themselves to play slower. I'm using every Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) I have around. You are saying that you don't like faster games, and I am asking if you have tried simply playing slower, because my slower games don't seem to have the problems you are describing. Other people don't seem to have the same complaints that you do at your level of ramp usage. You are the one with the concern. No one is defending fast mana; we just (apparently) aren't hugely troubled by it.
And I'm not saying that there are mechanically sound reasons for an optimal deck to not run ramp; I am saying that your focus on an optimal deck is what is causing you to run more ramp than you find enjoyable, and if you stopped building optimally you might have more of the experience that you want. I am also saying the difference in performance between optimal and the next step down is marginal, and that at lower power levels the variance of the game provides a more even footing between decks of differing powers. The same variance that you find un-fun at higher levels is integral to the proper functioning of the game at other levels. You can't just toss it out without consequences.
You keep asking and people keep saying it: no, a modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp would be neither better nor more balanced than the current rules, partly because it doesn't actually address the root problem, and partly because it ignores a great deal of non-corner cases that would be impacted by the decision.
Well now, this is really what I wanted to get into in the first place! But, why do you say that? If by "the root problem" you're just talking about the general (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=The+General) speed and power level of the format then, well, actually it probably does help with that, though it's hardly a silver bullet. But honestly my point is more just that ramp is all but ubiquitous in a way that doesn't really seem to add anything to the game. You say that EDH-with-worse-ramp would not be better, but let's look at the converse: why is EDH with all this fast ramp better than it would be without?
The root problem is not the speed of the whole format, it's the power-level of EDH that you play. This is not an EDH problem, but a high-level problem. Most upgraded pre-cons don't have much 0-drop ramp. Changing the rules would not empower you to make any deckbuilding decision that you can't make right now, it would just change the pool of optimal cards that you would be forced to play, and then those would feel ubiquitous. Everything you have suggested that it might accomplish is a state that many many people are currently already playing in. People don't (just) play budget decks to save money; those kinds of restrictions are what other people have come up with to address the issues that you are having. It slows the game down and eliminates the best-in-class options so you have to play more nuanced cards, tailored more specifically to your deck, which promotes variety. It's really fun too! You are welcome any time to play like that.
I'm just not sure where the difficulty is here. It sounds like your concern is that you aren't having fun with fast mana, but have discounted any solution that involves just... not doing that, unless everyone else has to as well. But most people already aren't using fast mana, so... you could just do that? It's like you are trying to convince people to stop doing something that they aren't doing but you are, but you want to make a rule against it so you don't feel like a chump for playing at a lower level. Even though it is the level that you wish (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wish) you were playing at. Just cut some rocks if you think they're bad for your game.
-
:o *speechless* :o
-
No one is defending fast mana; we just (apparently) aren't hugely troubled by it.
So, what, your answer is "yes, ramp is too good, but I just don't care"? Well... OK?
The root problem is not the speed of the whole format, it's the power-level of EDH that you play. This is not an EDH problem, but a high-level problem.
I mean... it is. The power level I play at is the EDH power level. It's part of the format. If that's a problem (but see below) it is 100% a format problem, because it's part of the format.
It sounds like your concern is that you aren't having fun with fast mana, but have discounted any solution that involves just... not doing that, unless everyone else has to as well.
I think you've misunderstood me; I'm not saying "oh woe is me, I keep playing fast mana and hating it!" but rather musing upon the nature of the format. If I just wanted to whine about something I'd have gone to Reddit, but I thought forums were a place to, like, discuss things. Apologies if it's too hypothetical or philosophical, but "just don't play ramp" is, aside from being a pretty terrible answer for reasons which should be obvious (but which I won't repeat), kind of missing the point.
-
No one is defending fast mana; we just (apparently) aren't hugely troubled by it.
So, what, your answer is "yes, ramp is too good, but I just don't care"? Well... OK?
More like "Ramp is ramp, so whatever.". It isn't good, it isn't bad, it just is.
-
No one is defending fast mana; we just (apparently) aren't hugely troubled by it.
So, what, your answer is "yes, ramp is too good, but I just don't care"? Well... OK?
More like "Ramp is ramp, so whatever.". It isn't good, it isn't bad, it just is.
Ramp by itself does nothing. But the cards you can ramp into can be problematic or unfun.
I would say that ramp is "too good" when you ramp into stuff that invalidates, or has the potential to invalidate, everything else that happened in the game up to that point (Apex Devastator (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Apex+Devastator), Expropriate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Expropriate), Omniscience (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Omniscience)).
-
To answer the question in general of is ramp to good? This is just based upon experience and observation of my playgroups and people I have played against. I have heard these 2 expressions more than the 3rd one I am going to post. Expression #1 "If only I had 1 more mana I could do the thing I really want to do" and "I just need to hit one more land or get some ramp and then I could do a thing".. Those 2 are said more compared to "I have nothing to do/play but I do have a boat load of mana I can use". In essence having not enough mana to do something is said more compared to having to much mana and nothing to do. So the answer for me would be no there is no such thing as ramp being to good.
-
It's not an argument against anything. It's supposed to be a discussion. I'm just saying "hey, do we think that maybe the best ramp cards in EDH are actually better than they need to be?". It's really that simple.
Highlights by me. I've been lacking this piece of information. Why do you say it only now, after three pages of novels?
Knowing this: no, ramp is not too good. They're just spells. This is the same as asking "is Thoracle too good?" which isn't really a question anyone else but the cEDH community can answer. Now, the format isn't ruled by the cEDH community -- in fact the RC very reluctantly banned Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) as a result of an outcry from the community. This to me proves that all cards can be used responsibly (including ramp) so that's a non-problem.
If you're asking on behalf of the cEDH community please say so! Is ramp too good in the context of cEDH? No, the meta is in a very healthy place right now. If it isn't broken don't try to fix it. I've never heard the cEDH community complain about ramp. Other cards, yes, but not ramp at large. I don't think ramp is a problem at any power level. When it comes to cEDH nothing in the current conversation implies ramp is a problem.
At lower power level the community is self-regulating and responsibility to play appropriate cards is on the player. So that, by definition, cannot be a problem. This is universal to all spells and does not apply to ramp specifically so that's not an argument either.
Q.E.D. - I rest my case. Is that what you were looking for? Does this prove ramp not being a problem well enough?
-
In essence having not enough mana to do something is said more compared to having to much mana and nothing to do. So the answer for me would be no there is no such thing as ramp being to good.
So, does it follow, then, that you think we should have, say, the old moxen back?
Highlights by me. I've been lacking this piece of information. Why do you say it only now, after three pages of novels?
Apologies. I guess I assumed people would understand what I was talking about in my first post, rather than making up weird things to argue about.
Is ramp too good in the context of cEDH? No, the meta is in a very healthy place right now. If it isn't broken don't try to fix it. I've never heard the cEDH community complain about ramp.
What do we mean by "the cEDH community"? cEDH players, typically, seem to concern themselves with creating the most powerful decks according to the rules. If anything, cEDH players are less likely to have a problem with something like ramp than the rest of us because they are choosing to play in the games where it's prevalent; people who dislike it are a lot less likely to play cEDH in the first place.
I'm talking about the format as a whole... which admittedly is difficult, because it gets into this weird philosophical thing about whether EDH that isn't cEDH is even EDH or whether the rules even really matter if people aren't playing optimally. Indeed, you seem to have hit upon that yourself:
At lower power level the community is self-regulating and responsibility to play appropriate cards is on the player. So that, by definition, cannot be a problem.
This sounds a lot like the "well EDH has this problem but we don't play EDH so we're happy so therefore EDH is great!" argument which... well, you can spot the flaw.
Indeed, if a self-regulating community is choosing not to play the best ramp spells (though I'm not sure that they are, if we discount "fast mana") then that rather implies that they are "too good" (for some definition of "too good", at least).
So far, what I've gotten is "some players [the cEDH ones] don't complain about ramp, and the ones who don't like it don't play it, therefore it must be fine" which, well, it's not exactly QED, is it? Oh, and "this is a question you could ask of any card, therefore you cannot ask it of ramp specifically" (which also doesn't make sense).
-
Indeed, you seem to have hit upon that yourself:
At lower power level the community is self-regulating and responsibility to play appropriate cards is on the player. So that, by definition, cannot be a problem.
This sounds a lot like the "well EDH has this problem but we don't play EDH so we're happy so therefore EDH is great!" argument which... well, you can spot the flaw.
Saying the community self-regulates is not the same as saying it has a problem. Self-regulation is the means by which it is not a problem. Some people just like playing with slower mana. Some people just like playing faster mana. By and large, players with similar likes choose to play together, and everyone can have fun. If you are playing fast games and wish (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wish) your games were slower, the problem is not the mana rocks.
Your responses have just become restatements of people's positions as non-sequitur straw men, and then addressing those. I won't accuse you of arguing in bad faith, but I am finished responding to this line of "discussion".
-
Saying the community self-regulates is not the same as saying it has a problem. Self-regulation is the means by which it is not a problem.
It's not really about whether it's a problem; I'm asking a question here about the mechanics of the game. If you're discussing the qualities of certain cards, to say "well yeah but we just don't play with those cards" completely dodges the question and is, essentially, irrelevant. It's a completely nonsensical line of reasoning.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not trying to restate any arguments as straw men, I guess I'm just struggling to understand certain other people's confusion), but you seem to be saying that if I have a problem with faster ramp, I should play games with other people not using faster ramp, and under the impression that I'm simply advocating for that ramp to be banned? If so... fine? But that's kind of missing the point again. For the purposes of this discussion, at least, "ban all ramp in EDH" and "I will play a version of EDH with my mates where ramp is banned/soft-banned" are the same; in either case, I'm playing a game with less ramp. My question is more about the relative merits of playing without that ramp in the first place.
It's also kind of a slightly philosophical one about game design, and whether these cards are tuned correctly, and what it actually means to be correct. I'm not sure that everyone here agrees but I still believe it to be the case (and in fact the common consensus) that the better ramp we have, including the regular non-fast-mana is really good, and more powerful than it needs to be (again, compare/contrast Standard) but there are reasons why that might still be desirable. I was hoping people might be interested in discussing those reasons and perhaps helping me decide whether any of them are particularly strong or not.
Please give me one more opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opportunity) to restate this in a way that may be more comprehensible. Forget (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Forget) all that rubbish about what you play in your playgroup or whatever; imagine you're a game designer at Wizards and someone's just invented mana rocks (or, heck, the whole notion of ramp) for the first time. You're trying to decide what the final mana rocks should look like (or they could be Rampant Growths, whatever, but let's just stick with rocks without loss of generality) and, for the sake of this thought experiment, let's assume there aren't already mana dorks or whatever to compare too. What CMC do you put these rocks at? Zero is a valid answer - that was what they did first, after all! But they decided that that was too low. Why? How about 1? 2? 3? 4? And why?
This is really the question I was trying to ask: would people put rocks in the same place they are now (which is about 2, ish, setting aside Sol Rings and other fast mana) if we didn't already have the guilty knowledge that we do? And what are the factors that would affect that decision? To me, the whole point of ramp is to provide a trade-off between playing it and not, so I'd want to try and balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) them around the point that the pros and cons to using them are roughly on some kind of a par (that's what I was trying to say in my first post; and, again, compare/contrast with Standard), but what I was trying to ask is, do people think there are other factors that should be taken into account?
That seems like a pretty simple question to me, albeit not necessarily one with a simple answer.
-
That seems like a pretty simple question to me, albeit not necessarily one with a simple answer.
We're 4 pages in and still don't know what kind of answer you want.
In no more than two sentences, can you state your question?
-
You're trying to decide what the final mana rocks should look like (or they could be Rampant Growths, whatever, but let's just stick with rocks without loss of generality) and, for the sake of this thought experiment, let's assume there aren't already mana dorks or whatever to compare too. What CMC do you put these rocks at? Zero is a valid answer - that was what they did first, after all! But they decided that that was too low. Why? How about 1? 2? 3? 4? And why?
That's a whole different question...again.
I think WotC has done a fine job balancing formats: at first you could get cards and mana for free, basically. But to offset that creatures and damage was hard to come by. Nowadays the balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) has shifted to the opposite and I think that is a natural consequence of balancing the different metas. If you look at what is printed to Modern and Standard these days you see what is being considered fair. So the answer is 2 (creature with summoning sickness), 2 (tapped rock) or 3 (untapped).
That being said it doesn't make previous ramp cards too powerful. They simply are? They don't break anything on their own. If you run all fast mana you have fast starts and EDH starts to look like Legacy lite and if you don't it's just as valid of a format.
You're asking to ignore a lot of context here. I don't understand why. It's very confusing. Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) of Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) are not bonkers good if everyone is running them and everyone is prepared to answer them. Dockside Extortionist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dockside+Extortionist) is bonkers good and probably the best ramp card out there in terms of cEDH. Not that good in lower power metas but that's not something you're concerned with.
I repeat my point: cEDH isn't crying for banning any ramp cards other than Dockside Extortionist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dockside+Extortionist) but even it is not a problem at large because it doesn't warp the meta to the point R is a must have colour. In fact its inclusion rate is 53% and it's not even the most popular combo card even though there are a lot of cards that combo with it.
-
I’ve read four pages of this and don’t understand what the OP is really asking. Did I miss something?
-
In no more than two sentences, can you state your question?
Yes, in my experience fewer sentences always make things clearer. Let's have a go...
"In EDH, how powerful do you think ramp cards should be, and why?"
If you look at what is printed to Modern and Standard these days you see what is being considered fair. So the answer is 2 (creature with summoning sickness), 2 (tapped rock) or 3 (untapped).
Standard is, however, not EDH, and in fact even there I don't think you get any 2-mana rocks even tapped. Tablet of Compleation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tablet+of+Compleation) just showed up, and it is effectively double-tapped (you need to tap it an extra time, or proliferate) before it gives you mana (though it does also have a potential card-draw mode, eventually). In EDH, aggro decks aren't overrunning durdly ramping decks early before they can get set up (not that this is any bad thing, IMO) so I suspect the balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) is a bit different.
That being said it doesn't make previous ramp cards too powerful. They simply are?
Well... if a card is about right, and then another card is more powerful than it, it kind of suggests that the other card is too powerful, or at least pushing it (likewise if a card is notably worse, it's probably not very good). That's pretty much tautological; more powerful cards are, well, more powerful.
-
"In EDH, how powerful do you think ramp cards should be, and why?"
As powerful as they are now.
Because the power they currently have is quite varied.
-
"In EDH, how powerful do you think ramp cards should be, and why?"
I honestly don't have a problem with any ramp. I've had a few games where someone drops a Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) T1 and then has 4-5 mana on T2, and I've scoffed; however, my dissatisfaction level is the same as when someone plays a stax piece. I knew it was a potential, and I've got one in my deck, so it just comes down to the natural variance of the game that my opponent stuck the landing and not me.
We've discussed fast ramp in my pod before and the discussion always comes down to the same factor, late game catching up. No matter how good your card draw, sometimes you miss you 4th, 5th, and/or 6th land drop, and everyone else boosts ahead. Going mana positive on a later turn is sometimes essential to even have a horse in the race. I think we all remember that time we tutored for a sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) when we would have loved to get a combo piece or a board wipe. If the only two options were to 1) never have explosive first turns, or 2) have the ability to catch up, I'm picking 2 every time and dealing with any drawbacks of accelerated games.
Additionally, I think it's hard to decide that a certain mana cost for a certain mana output ratio is inherently too powerful. An everflowing chalice (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Everflowing+Chalice) or a black market (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Black+Market) can very quickly generate absurd amounts of mana in the right decks. Sure it takes setup, but not much. And I've definitely experienced mana crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) into sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) into a signet plenty of times where the player was just dead in the water without good spells to play while hoping no one has a nature's claim (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nature%27s+Claim).
So, to answer the question succinctly, I'd say current ramp is fine. If we had to draw a line on cost/output, I would say Black Lotus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Black+Lotus) is a pretty good barometer.
-
"In EDH, how powerful do you think ramp cards should be, and why?"
Where they are right now is a good spot. They're strong but not overpowering. I wouldn't mind seeing a cycle like the diamonds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Charcoal+Diamond) except where they don't enter tapped. They'd be good options for mono-coloured decks while being inferior in multicoloured.
-
I was going to say it depends on what you want out of EDH, but, the more I think about it, I realize that is wrong. If you want to play big splashy creatures, ramp. If you want to flood (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flood) the field with weenies, ramp. If you are like me and want to make big splashy plays that then flood (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flood) the field with weenies, ramp! Ramp speeds up the game, and the more they print the harder it is for the guy who can afford the best cards to buy games. I love ramp, because it helps people do all the things I love in EDH just that little bit faster. That means more games and more interesting boardstates.
-
So, to answer the question succinctly, I'd say current ramp is fine.
It may be a little subtle, but this isn't the question you quoted. I asked "how powerful do you think ramp cards should be, and why?", not "is what we have at the moment OK?". It's possible that what we have now is fine but something else would be better, so not having any problems with the game as it is now simply doesn't rule out the option of existing ramp (but also doesn't rule out anything else).
We've discussed fast ramp in my pod before and the discussion always comes down to the same factor, late game catching up. No matter how good your card draw, sometimes you miss you 4th, 5th, and/or 6th land drop, and everyone else boosts ahead. Going mana positive on a later turn is sometimes essential to even have a horse in the race. I think we all remember that time we tutored for a sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) when we would have loved to get a combo piece or a board wipe. If the only two options were to 1) never have explosive first turns, or 2) have the ability to catch up, I'm picking 2 every time and dealing with any drawbacks of accelerated games.
Interesting take, but I think that, if you think about it, it doesn't quite work out like that; for every opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opportunity) for someone to catch up, there's a time when someone else gets ahead faster, creating the very problem you're trying to fix in the first place (and being in that position on turn 2 sucks even worse). Essentially, you've increased the variance, because yes sometimes I will miss land drops but be able to tutor for some fast mana, but other times I will do neither whilst someone else is doing both.
And, of course, the effect is limited by how many tutors you have and how many pieces of fast mana. Plus, you could just replace some of those with lands and the difference between worst cases and best would already be smaller. I actually think that MDFC lands or cards like Abundant Harvest (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Abundant+Harvest), Dig Up (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dig+Up), etc are a much better fix to this problem than Sol Rings and Mana Crypts.
-
So, to answer the question succinctly, I'd say current ramp is fine.
It may be a little subtle, but this isn't the question you quoted. I asked "how powerful do you think ramp cards should be, and why?", not "is what we have at the moment OK?". It's possible that what we have now is fine but something else would be better, so not having any problems with the game as it is now simply doesn't rule out the option of existing ramp (but also doesn't rule out anything else).
Bro, it's literally the title of the thread. Is it too good? No. How powerful should it be? The current level of variable power. In the context of my whole post, this answer makes complete sense with your question. I mean, I'm trying to be on your side in this, but your discourse is making it really hard. I know someone mentioned before that they didn't want to say you were arguing in bad faith here, but I'm starting to think their instincts were right. I can't tell if you can't read the room or if you're intentionally being argumentative for the sake of argument. I think at this point the waters are so muddied that it's a good idea to just start a new thread that is intentional, clear, and directed at the level of pedantry you're looking for in this discussion.
Interesting take, but I think that, if you think about it, it doesn't quite work out like that; for every opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opportunity) for someone to catch up, there's a time when someone else gets ahead faster, creating the very problem you're trying to fix in the first place (and being in that position on turn 2 sucks even worse). Essentially, you've increased the variance, because yes sometimes I will miss land drops but be able to tutor for some fast mana, but other times I will do neither whilst someone else is doing both.
And, of course, the effect is limited by how many tutors you have and how many pieces of fast mana. Plus, you could just replace some of those with lands and the difference between worst cases and best would already be smaller. I actually think that MDFC lands or cards like Abundant Harvest (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Abundant+Harvest), Dig Up (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dig+Up), etc are a much better fix to this problem than Sol Rings and Mana Crypts.
I agree with your point about MDFC's here. However, when it comes to the two types of situations we've been discussing, I can only go by experience alone. I don't keep any data on this in my pod. All I know is that the enduring feeling is one of relief when I can catch up, and not of frustration of getting smoked by fast mana.
-
This is going to sound like a generic answer, but it's really up to the individual metas to decide. There are two shops (well were two, one closed) where I live. One of them was a much more competitive meta where you wanted your deck as fast as possible with quick mana while the other was slower but everyone did play ramp, just not the quick mana. There were those of us that went to both stores and adjusted accordingly to where we were. All of this while having a somewhere in between speed when playing with my regular playgroup while having a few drinks.
So I guess my answer is, where it's at is fine. You just have to make sure your meta is all on the same page.
-
Bro, it's literally the title of the thread. Is it too good? No. How powerful should it be? The current level of variable power. In the context of my whole post, this answer makes complete sense with your question.
You literally quoted the question "In EDH, how powerful do you think ramp cards should be, and why?". That's actually slightly different to the title of the thread, yes, because people apparently couldn't grasp my original post, so we've changed tack a bit. However, given that you quoted that exact line, I figured that that's what you were responding to.
And, your point is still valid. At least you have provided a genuine argument: "I think fast ramp should exist to give people the opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opportunity) to catch up" (though I think you need to go a bit of a way to convince me). I'm just making the counterpoint that it's not the full story. "I don't have a problem with things are they are" isn't quite the same as "things as they are are the best they could be", after all, which is why I changed to asking people how you would go about designing ramp cards in the first place in an attempt to get away from things like forgetting that Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is an utterly ridiculous card just because we're used to seeing it everywhere.
(Imagine if fast mana had never existed and the best ramp we had were dorks and Three Visits (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Three+Visits) and Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet) or whatever, and they printed Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring)... people would flip out!)
I agree with your point about MDFC's here. However, when it comes to the two types of situations we've been discussing, I can only go by experience alone. I don't keep any data on this in my pod. All I know is that the enduring feeling is one of relief when I can catch up, and not of frustration of getting smoked by fast mana.
But surely that feeling of relief must come about because you disliked being behind in the first place? Is it more the time element, perhaps? If someone is on 5 mana on turn two whilst you're only on 2, that sucks, but if you're on 2 on turn 5 when everyone else is on 5, it feels worse because it's been going on for longer? (And is perhaps in reality slightly worse as they've also have more mana for several turns now, so their total available will have been more whereas the first person probably tapped out to ramp... even if, by turn 5, their advantage will be truly huge)
-
Should I lock this thread? It seems like no one is enjoying this conversation and I'm worried that things are about to get heated.
-
Should I lock this thread? It seems like no one is enjoying this conversation and I'm worried that things are about to get heated.
I would. It just seems its turned into a bickering match over semantics. :-X