Deckstats Forum
English-language Forums => Deck Reviews => Topic started by: SamsWrath on April 19, 2018, 12:21:20 pm
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Grenzo, Goblin Toilet Commander--He shits em' out! (https://deckstats.net/decks/104544/969541-grenzo-goblin-toilet-commander?revision=2)
1) Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Grenzo%2C+Dungeon+Warden) shits out goblins
2) The goblins form a gang
3) The goblins gang-bang all other permanents and players
4) GG!
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Temple of Malice (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Temple+of+Malice)
Howltooth Hollow (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Howltooth+Hollow)
Spinerock Knoll (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spinerock+Knoll)
Mana Echoes (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mana+Echoes)
Ashnod's Altar (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ashnod%27s+Altar)
Darksteel Pendant (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Darksteel+Pendant)
Crystal Ball (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Crystal+Ball)
Teferi's Puzzle Box (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Teferi%27s+Puzzle+Box)
Thran Turbine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thran+Turbine)
Braid of Fire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Braid+of+Fire)
Skirk Prospector (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Skirk+Prospector) + Lightning Crafter (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lightning+Crafter) (combo with Kiki-Jiki)
Brass Herald (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brass+Herald) (name rogue, pump Grenzo and put stuff to bottom)
Clone Shell (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Clone+Shell)
Goblin Matron (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Goblin+Matron)
Moggcatcher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Moggcatcher)
Solemn Simulacrum (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Solemn+Simulacrum)
Here's my own Grenzo list, it's combo-heavy but you can have a look if you want:
https://deckstats.net/decks/54477/454432-grenzo-s-deck
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Took your advice on a few cards and added a few others I came across but, now I am having a hard time thinning down to 100. I need to eliminate 6 cards. Do you have any suggestions?
I want to keep the mana-fixes, cost reductions, scry, search/tutors and move cards from battlefield/GY to bottom of deck cards. I am leaning toward removing Thran Turbine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thran+Turbine) and Goblin Chirurgeon (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Goblin+Chirurgeon) but, I'll still need to thin another 3 cards.
I am removing Thran Turbine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thran+Turbine) because it only gives 2 colorless and while nice, is the least useful of my mana-fixes. Removing Goblin Chirurgeon (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Goblin+Chirurgeon) takes me down to 7 sac outs but, most people use creature board wipe with "cannot be regenerated" so I see sacrificing creatures for mana, scry or pump as on overall better option.
I still need to thin another 4 cards.
I want to keep my creature/goblin density as high as possible so that it's easy for me to bottom-deck with Grenzo even if I don't have scry available.
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I have 36% of creatures while you have 49%.
Though I admit I'm on the lower side, I think you can safely trim some extra critter.
Moreover, you're very low on lands (I have 35, which I consider a bare minimum, while you've only 30).
Cards that I'd cut:
Chrome Mox (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Chrome+Mox) (card disadvantage, Thran Turbine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thran+Turbine) is better)
Extraplanar Lens (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Extraplanar+Lens) (worth only in monocolor decks)
Gauntlet of Might (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Gauntlet+of+Might), Gauntlet of Power (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Gauntlet+of+Power) (just put more lands instead)
Herald's Horn (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Herald%27s+Horn) (irrelevant, goblins already don't cost that much and you're playing them with Grenzo anyway)
Bloodmark Mentor (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bloodmark+Mentor), Foundry Street Denizen (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Foundry+Street+Denizen), Frogtosser Banneret (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Frogtosser+Banneret), Goblin Lackey (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Goblin+Lackey), Legion Loyalist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Legion+Loyalist), Tuktuk the Explorer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tuktuk+the+Explorer), Warren Instigator (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Warren+Instigator) (weak)
Goblin Gardener (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Goblin+Gardener) (Goblin Settler (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Goblin+Settler) is enough, and he has to die to do his deed)
Skirk Fire Marshal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Skirk+Fire+Marshal) (too much suicidal, in my opinion)
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I was thinking...
Put Purphoros, God of the Forge (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Purphoros%2C+God+of+the+Forge) and stuff like that.
It should be more effective than trying to swarm on everybody.
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Thran Turbine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thran+Turbine) is in no way better than Chrome Mox (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Chrome+Mox). U can only even use it on cumulative upkeep costs because thran turbine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thran+Turbine) says u cant use the mana to cast spells. Every legal mix along with mana vault (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mana+Vault) and mana crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) should be in this deck
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Thran Turbine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thran+Turbine) essentially lets you flip a card from the bottom of your library for free, each turn.
And you only have to invest one colorless mana once.
That's not weak at all, it's almost a second Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) in this deck.
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Crimson, why use Nekrataal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nekrataal) over Ravenous Chupacabra (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ravenous+Chupacabra) ? I'm gonna work the Chupa into my deck as well as a Viashino Heretic (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Viashino+Heretic). I might also try to work Wort, Boggart Auntie (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Wort%2C+Boggart+Auntie) back in.
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Why use either when u can cast down (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cast+Down) or damnation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Damnation)
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Nekrataal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nekrataal) is worse than Ravenous Chupacabra (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ravenous+Chupacabra) (I think I put a reminder there), but I have a soft spot for it.
Wort, Boggart Auntie (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Wort%2C+Boggart+Auntie) is especially good with Gempalm Incinerator (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Gempalm+Incinerator): it's a repeatable removal and a draw engine altogether.
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Why use either when u can cast down (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cast+Down) or damnation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Damnation)
Nekrataal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nekrataal) (and the Chupacabra) can be flipped with Grenzo and tutored with Fleshwrither (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Fleshwrither).
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Idk I feel like they could just be replaced with something better
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So... I took this deck to my LGS for Commander League and I have to say it performs well. I built it to be a "fair deck" so I won't loose points for excessive combo, excessive searching (doesn't include fetch land searches in my CL), excessive land destruction or drawing too many cards/turn (Grenzo's ability happily gets around that rule). Also, the 30 lands worked very well. I've now played a total of 13 games without the need for a mulligan.
If the CMC of cards is low enough and there are a few other ways to generate mana, there's no need 35+ lands in Commander. Also, I am running a lot of Fetch Lands and with Crucible of Worlds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Crucible+of+Worlds), 1 Fetch in my GY pretty much allows me to thin all the lands out of the deck which, makes Grenzo's ability that much stronger!
Crimsonking, I think you'd get more out of your build if you add more fetch lands. Also consider that anytime Grenzo shits a sorcery, instant, artifact or enchantment to the GY, you can move it under the deck and then use a fetch to shuffle--effectively giving yourself a second shot at that particular card.
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Although I know any fetchland can go in any deck, I have a personal rule to only use those that search for lands in my color identity (I've made an exception only for The Gitrog Monster (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=The+Gitrog+Monster)).
Moreover, I run several cards (Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Xiahou+Dun%2C+the+One-Eyed), Anarchist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Anarchist), Recoup (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Recoup), Yawgmoth's Will (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Yawgmoth%27s+Will) and, though in a more convoluted way, Reito Lantern (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Reito+Lantern)) to recycle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Recycle) my sorceries (typically just Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Doomsday)).
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My fetch lands only search lands that produce mana of my commander's color identity. There are more than enough available to search red/black to have 10+ if you wanted.
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2 color decks have 7 fetches in their colors..
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I know, I'm only saying that if for instance a fetchland can search for a Forest (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Forest), I choose not to put it because Forests are out of Grenzo's color identity.
The only exception has been The Gitrog Monster (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=The+Gitrog+Monster)'s deck and, now that I think of it, I use the Panorama fetches from Alara in enemy-color decks.
As I said, that's my personal choice, although I know that many other people do the same.
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Soren841, what about slow fetches? There are only 7 lands that are turn 1 fecthes for a 2 color deck but, there are more than 7 total fetch lands that will work in a 2 color deck. Thawing Glaciers (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thawing+Glaciers) is a fetch that is usable every other turn because it always returns to your hand. Rocky Tar Pit (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Rocky+Tar+Pit), Bad River (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bad+River) & Mountain Valley (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mountain+Valley) come into play tapped but, search for a Swamp (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)/Mountain (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mountain) the next turn and that land comes into play untapped. There's also Terramorphic Expanse (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Terramorphic+Expanse) which can fetch any basic same as Thawing Glaciers (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thawing+Glaciers).
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Tapped fetches are bad dont run them
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Soren, They work well in Commander, especially in Commander leagues that have point systems. If I was building a turn 2 combo commander deck I wouldn't run them. However, this deck is designed to be fair and to be played in a league with rules that prohibit (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Prohibit) excess combo, excess card drawing, excess land destruction, excess searching (excluding land searches).
Also, have you ever played against a commander deck that pops off turn 1 or 2? It isn't fun. If i want to loose with ZERO interaction on turn 1 or turn 2 I'll play Legacy. Commander decks that operate that way are abusing the format.
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Fast combo decks cant consistently combo until turn 3, and they don't run no interaction. Interaction is very important in tier edh
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Sphinx sphinx everywhere, on the table and under the chair
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I'm not sure how Soren841 is a, "Hero Member" because his comments are the only useless comments in this thread. The guy only wants to argue that his suggestions are best.
Soren841, just because you're a loud mouth (you post a lot) doesn't make you right.
Ohhh, and you must play against some piss-poor commander combo because I have friends with decks that consistently go off turn 2 and can win with ZERO interaction.
Soren841, feel free to not comment here anymore because you're not helpful.
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I'm sorry that you feel the need to be disrespectful. I will be having a nice conversation with Nils about you. If they run 0 interaction they would lose at a real competitive pod because, like I said, competitive decks do run interaction. And I would love to see the decklists that "consistently" go off turn 2. I dont just post a lot, I play a lot, I make a lot of decks, I just Magic a lot. Please if you have nothing helpful to say then don't say anything at all because people like you bring the rest of us all down.
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You've been nothing but, unhelpful and argumentative. Please, stay out of my thread.
Here are some examples of your argumentative comments and lack of considering the deck's mechanics when posting:
1) "Thran Turbine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thran+Turbine) is in no way better than Chrome Mox (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Chrome+Mox)"
2) "Why use either when u can cast down (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cast+Down) or damnation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Damnation)"
3) "2 color decks have 7 fetches in their colors.."
4) "Tapped fetches are bad dont run them"
5) "Fast combo decks cant consistently combo until turn 3, and they don't run no interaction. Interaction is very important in tier edh"
Now that your feelings are hurt, because I called you out on your argumentative/unhelpful comments, I see you're gonna run off and cry to a mod. Okay bud. How very Snowflake of you!
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Actually you are being very disrespectful and all of my comments are technically correct, while all yours are useless.
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And now you spam downvote my posts. Please grow up.
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It actually wasn't me spamming the downvotes but, since you accuse me of it I made it so.
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"Please if you have nothing helpful to say then don't say anything at all because people like you bring the rest of us all down."
^Probably one of the MOST hypocritical comments I've ever read. LMFAO!
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Wow I've never see something like this, this is a really big issue, but i feel like Samswrath is mostly right magic the gathering is a great game that helps us celebrate individualism i mean MTG has an entire and still growing spellbook (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spellbook) where we can put together and combine with whatever we think is best and decks also evolve from time to time that's why we have now commander, legacy, modern, standard, ect. If Samswrath theory is good enough and serves it's purpose there is no argument in there because for him is working and does what he wanted to do. Every body should remember that this site is to learn from others and also help if needed understanding is key remember that is your logic against many people logic.
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I'm not sure how Soren841 is a, "Hero Member" because his comments are the only useless comments in this thread. The guy only wants to argue that his suggestions are best.
Soren841, just because you're a loud mouth (you post a lot) doesn't make you right.
Ohhh, and you must play against some piss-poor commander combo because I have friends with decks that consistently go off turn 2 and can win with ZERO interaction.
Soren841, feel free to not comment here anymore because you're not helpful.
I missed this whole thing when it went down because I try to ignore posts made by certain members; its not just you and not just this thread. Use the little "report to moderator" button in the lower right corner of the offending post(s). Then explain the issue to the mods in a clear, calm way just like it was a technical issue with the site. They cannot address an issue unless they know about it. I've used this method and had better success than trying to self-police. When it happens repeatedly and it is reported repeatedly, by multiple sources, mods get a better idea of the scope of the issue.
I don't want to clog up your deck question thread any more than it already is, so PM me if you want to discuss it more. Reporting is the way to go! :)
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@ CardAgain Sweater, Thanks for the advise. I put that disruptive kid on ignore a while back. it's funny though, there's a lot of salt on this site and people seem to think that karma (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Karma) down-votes actually mean something. Salty MTG players must be on a permanent diet of Top Ramen because they spend all their cash on cards.
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Please, can I ask everybody to keep discussions on our forums civil and not resort to insulting posts or excessive downvoting. In the end, every time I deal with an issue like this it is taking away time that I would much rather spend on making improvements to deckstats.
SamsWrath, please refrain from downvoting users systematically just because you disagree with them. You are of course welcome to downvote posts that are low-quality or inappropriate, but your votes should be based on content and not your opinion of the poster. Since your voting on Soren841's posts does not appear to have been based on post content, I have removed your downvotes and restored his Karma (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Karma).
But Soren841, this does not mean that you are blameless here. When you make suggestions to others, please always make sure that you provide adequate explanations for why they should be doing something. For example, something like "Tapped fetches are bad dont run them" is not a helpful post. If you post things like this, you should not be surprised about being downvoted. Also, if you see that your suggestions are not wanted, please just stop posting in the thread rather than arguing with the OP.
Thank you.
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Nils, I would like to pint out that I only, "systematically" down-voted Soren after he falsely accused me of doing so and only after he went through my thread and down voted all of my posts. Honestly though, I think the Karma (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Karma) function on this site is worthless because people vote with emotion rather than a valid reason.
Also, I happened to comment in another thread where Soren had posted. I made sure not to interact with him yet, he took the opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Opportunity) to down vote my post.
The kid is acting out emotionally.
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Actually I am not, and you did systematically downvote every post in this thread.
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I think both have to quit your jabbing it's just look unmature, like I said everybody have to respect individuals decisions no matter if it does not make sense to you or you just dislike some set up, the first person that has to feel right about it's creation is its onw creator it self right? Anyway all decks suffer multiple changes during it's creation until you found the perfect fit for yourself.
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Nils very wise, excellent job that's why I like so much deckstats.net. You are a excellent administrator.