Deckstats Forum
English-language Forums => General Magic => Tópico iniciado por: Caveman Clay em Junho 07, 2019, 01:59:56 am
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After watching several U Tube video's on building an EDH commander deck .
Lands 32-35
Mana Ramp 10
Board Wipes 5
Card Draw 10
Single card removal 5
Stand alone cards 20
Enhancers 10
Enablers 5
Question is ? I'm running blue and red with fist fill of counter spells (10) Would they count for single card removal or enablers.
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I have questions of my own.
What are stand alone cards?
What are enhancers?
What are enablers?
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I'm not much of an EDH maker my self but as I see it, you start with the commander the only card you can reliably have. from there devise what does this creature do best? Niv-Mizzet the Purun, for example, enables you to collect high amounts of card advantage from instants and sorceries. so going from Niv, you select cards and mechanics that further this Locust God and the other Nivs come to mind and for mechanics storm and the card Thousand Year Storm (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thousand-Year+Storm) allows one to cast a lot of spells and by extension deal commander damage outside of combat. Snapcaster Mage (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Snapcaster+Mage) and other cards of this type are able to allow you to cast more. from here you can decide as you have suggested controlling or aggressive from here it's a simple matter of casting 21 spells while The Purun in on the field the other Nivs further enable this. and actually, you've got me in a mood to make such a deck. one thing is EDH is a lot slower and a lot less consistent unless you run into a "competitive EDH" deck which can be run as fast as modern. this is my experience in EDH hope it was helpful
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I think it depends on the counterspell (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Counterspell), some can be considered "targetted removal", some can be considered "enablers" via protecting your win conditions, but some are versatile enough to fall into both camps.
Naturally then, you want to play as many counterspells that are versatile enough to do both. This means a.) they are cheap enough that you can still have enough mana to use them if needed when playing your win conditions and b.) they aren't super restricted in what they can target. So my rule of thumb for these "versatile" counterspells is anything with a cmc <= 2 that can counter at least any noncreature spell or "higher" (i.e. counter anything).
In my experience have come to consider the following counterspells as "versatile":
[[Counterspell]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Counterspell)
[[Delay]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Delay)
[[Arcane Denial]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Denial)
[[Negate]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Negate)
[[Swan Song]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Swan+Song)
[[Force of Will]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
[[Dovin's Veto]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dovin%27s+Veto)
[[Countersquall]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Countersquall)
[[Mana Drain]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Drain)
Usually, this means you can play about 5-7 of the above spells with no issues from color or price restrictions. If you're looking at playing something closer to 10 counterspells, I'd fill the remaining slots with higher impact, "targetted removal" counterspells such as [[Counterflux]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Counterflux), [[Cryptic Command]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cryptic+Command), [[Mystic Confluence]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mystic+Confluence), [[Dream Fracture]] (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dream+Fracture), etc.
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I just got into EDH about a year ago and I definitely love it - requires a very different approach to deckbuilding. The mana base is obviously super important, and I wouldn't recommend going as low as 32, unless you're running a lot of mana rocks. I would play 35 in a mono-colored EDH deck and feel okay about it. Most of my EDH decks use around 37 lands + mana rocks and I rarely get screwed or flooded. Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is pretty much mandatory in any EDH deck, and if you're running a multicolored deck, guild Signets (ie Azorius Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Azorius+Signet), Rakdos Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rakdos+Signet)) are very effective mana rocks as well.
You definitely need to run card draw, because even in draw-heavy EDH decks, I've never drawn more than 50-60 cards in one game. Cantrips are your friend, since they have effects/leave a creature on the board AND draw. You're not going to touch a lot of your deck so it's good to have multiple cards that can have the same effects (ie Parallel Lives (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Parallel+Lives) and Anointed Procession (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Anointed+Procession) in a token-heavy GW deck). Cards that give options are also extremely valuable - Dromoka's Command (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dromoka%27s+Command) is necessary for me in any GW deck, just as Merciless Eviction (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Merciless+Eviction) is for me in any BW deck. Hero's Downfall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Hero%27s+Downfall) replaces Murder (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Murder) any day of the week. Since you won't be drawing a lot of your deck, having one card that can get you out of multiple jams is REALLY good.
Sorry if this is info you already know! Good hunting!
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I have questions of my own.
What are stand alone cards?
What are enhancers?
What are enablers?
This is pretty much straight off the Command Zone deck building template episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ6m_3J1hjI
I'm curious as to where the 32-35 land number came from. Usually you start with 35-37 and adjust from there.
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I have my very own deckbuilding template that you can find in most of my EDH decks from the last 6 months.
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Okay.
So stand alone is a card that works on it's own or with its commander.
Enhancers are cards that are stronger with your commander, or make your commander stronger.
Enablers are cards that cover a weakness (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Weakness) of your deck.
... I don't like this outline.
So to answer your question in a different way, you really should only be using 3 to 5 counterspells in most cases. This is enough to both protect your boardstate, while sometimes disrupting your opponents (using them as protection is more important). Because counterspells are card disadvantage in commander, you should only be using a high number of counterspells (8 or more) if your commander has some way of providing lots of card draw.
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You can also use more if you're a combo deck and they're defensive counterspells.
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And here is a question around counter spells ? (Red / Blue Storm Build ) Single card removal and counter spell. (Same ? )
Should I cut some of these. Is this fair and balanced Magic
Single Card removal (5)
1 Aetherize (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Aetherize) (protection)
1 Capsize (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Capsize) (When this goes off i can hit 40- 50 spell count this turn) :) Burn baby burn..
1 Chaos Warp (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Chaos+Warp)
1 Pongify (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Pongify)
1 Rapid Hybridization (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rapid+Hybridization)
Counterspell (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Counterspell) (6)
1 Disallow (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Disallow)
1 Dissolve (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dissolve)
1 Mana Leak (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Leak)
1 Negate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Negate)
1 Snap (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Snap)
1 Sphinx of the Final Word (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sphinx+of+the+Final+Word)
Board wipe (3)
1 Cyclonic Rift (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cyclonic+Rift)
1 Evacuation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Evacuation)
1 Vandalblast (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Vandalblast)
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Depending on how creature heavy your meta is Blasphemous Act (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blasphemous+Act) and Chain Reaction (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Chain+Reaction) could be good as well for mass removal. Wash Out (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wash+Out) could also be another option.
As far as your counters, why no Counterspell (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Counterspell)? A hard counter for two is pretty hard to beat. I also like Swan Song (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Swan+Song).
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Removal and counterspells are different. Your first priority with counterspells should be protection. Use them to counter board wipes when you have a good boardstate, use them against stax pieces that will hurt you, and use them against removal spells that target your commander.
Second priority is using them as disruption, when your opponent either does a big move to win the game, or something that will set them up to win the game.
Counterspells are not removal.
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I feel like deck building shouldn't be in too strict of a template. Sure a predetermined amount of lands and mana rocks is good, but from there just build your deck. Sre you having too much trouble interacting with your opponents? Fix it. Do you have too much interaction and too few win cons? Fix it. But you really only learn from playing the deck.
Also vandalblast (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Vandalblast) is a boardwipe? I mean I guess it is, but when I hear that term, I usually expect creatures to die. If it hits creatures AND other stuff, that's great, but I would classify vandalblast (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Vandalblast) as removal.
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I'm thinking he meant mass removal more than boardwipe though I guess you can argue that boardwipe can mean more than creature removal. *shrug*
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Worldfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Worldfire) is the only board wipe
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Worldfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Worldfire) is the only board wipe
Probably why it's banned. ;D
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After watching several U Tube video's on building an EDH commander deck .
Lands 32-35
Mana Ramp 10
Board Wipes 5
Card Draw 10
Single card removal 5
Stand alone cards 20
Enhancers 10
Enablers 5
Question is ? I'm running blue and red with fist fill of counter spells (10) Would they count for single card removal or enablers.
While this is a decent starting template, your commander can warp these numbers quite a bit. A commander such as Nekusar, the Mindrazer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nekusar%2C+the+Mindrazer) will probably be skimping on both categories of removal and traditional card draw spells while loading up with Enhancers and Enablers [wheel effects and things that cause damage for opponents discarding] so the %'s aren't set in stone by any means. My Zurgo Helmsmasher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Zurgo+Helmsmasher) deck has 8-11 boardwipes [he's indestructible after all,... well, part of the time anyway] and a similar count of targeted removal [since Sunforger can fetch all of them at need] and I probably have only 5 spells for card draw since he plans on winning quickly.
I have no idea how some players get away with a 32-35 land count. 36 is a minimum for me and 37-38 is typical [depending on average CMC of spells].
I consider counterspells as 'stand alone' cards personally and tend to include only 3-5 counters to stop 'I lose' spells my opponents try to cast [I think my heaviest control deck may have 7]. Some groups get twitchy if you have too many counters in your deck so I err on keeping their presence light.
I think a better use for that list is just to remember to consider each category of card and decide how it applies towards the commander you're trying to build/tune for and adjust as needed.
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Worldfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Worldfire) is the only board wipe
Bearer of the Heavens (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bearer+of+the+Heavens) and Worldslayer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Worldslayer) are comparable. they do wipe the board. They don't get rid of hands and graveyard, but those things aren't on the board.
Yes I know worldslayer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Worldslayer) stays on the board.
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I consider counterspells as 'stand alone' cards personally and tend to include only 3-5 counters to stop 'I lose' spells my opponents try to cast [I think my heaviest control deck may have 7]. Some groups get twitchy if you have too many counters in your deck so I err on keeping their presence light.
Very true. I had one playgroup that considered every deck I ran to be a control deck because they all had 2-3 counters in them. I packed 2-3 in order to protect my win-cons or stop yours. Each groups perception on things is different.
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After watching several U Tube video's on building an EDH commander deck .
Lands 32-35
Mana Ramp 10
Board Wipes 5
Card Draw 10
Single card removal 5
Stand alone cards 20
Enhancers 10
Enablers 5
Question is ? I'm running blue and red with fist fill of counter spells (10) Would they count for single card removal or enablers.
So this is a baseline template, it is a good start to any Commander deck. However, as it was mentioned before, these numbers will change depending on several factors...
Your Commander is probably the biggest factor as its not only going to base what the deck does, but what colors. Some colors have an abundance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Abundance) of a type of category, while lacking in others (for example, Green doesn't not have many Board Wipes or burn, but has a lot of Ramp and Enhancers). Then there is the theme of the deck, is it a Control deck, a Token Deck, Lands Matter, Tribal, etc? What you want to do with the deck is going to change those numbers. For example, a Token deck will usually not have many Board Wipes, if at all. The Land and Mana Ramp categories will change depending on if you run a lot of High CMC cards, or if your running a lot of Low CMC cards but want more Mana Ramp, you will probably want more Card Draw. The numbers also change depending on if you want to play Casually or Competitively.
On top of that, there are cards that could be considered for multiple categories. Like Mirari's Wake (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mirari%27s+Wake) could be considered as an Enhancer and Mana Ramp, Cryptic Command (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cryptic+Command) has 3 separate abilities that could be considered as multiple categories, even a card like Mirage Mirror (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mirage+Mirror) could be considered for ALL categories depending on how the deck is built and who your playing against.
Commander deck building is fun but can be complicated. My best advice is to stick with what you want the deck to do and try not to deviate from that too much. I mean, I built a Krenko, Mob Boss (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Krenko%2C+Mob+Boss) goblin tribal deck based around Tokens, but I threw in a Altar of Dementia (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Altar+of+Dementia) because I thought it would be funny to play it and see my opponent's reaction as I Mill them with a Red Deck. (It was also the only card that Milled in the deck.)
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I mean, I built a Krenko, Mob Boss (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Krenko%2C+Mob+Boss) goblin tribal deck based around Tokens, but I threw in a Altar of Dementia (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Altar+of+Dementia) because I thought it would be funny to play it and see my opponent's reaction as I Mill them with a Red Deck. (It was also the only card that Milled in the deck.)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
This is awesome!
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I mean, I built a Krenko, Mob Boss (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Krenko%2C+Mob+Boss) goblin tribal deck based around Tokens, but I threw in a Altar of Dementia (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Altar+of+Dementia) because I thought it would be funny to play it and see my opponent's reaction as I Mill them with a Red Deck. (It was also the only card that Milled in the deck.)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
This is awesome!
Sacrificing a goblin is the MTG equivalent of duct tape, there are just so many uses for them.
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Thanks for the info, sorry about not replying sooner, had surgery then field days for the fire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Fire) deportment, Life is busy. I guess the same would apply to tutor and card draw. So I'm taking a step backwards. working on work condition and adjusting card draw, protecting, around my win conditions.
Found a article on the web (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Web) called mizzix_storm_primer. and it outlined a few ways to win with storm and Mizzix, It included key cards to add.
Aetherflux Reservoir (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Aetherflux+Reservoir), Dramatic Reversal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dramatic+Reversal), Enter the Infinite (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Enter+the+Infinite), Isochron Scepter (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Isochron+Scepter), Mizzix's Mastery (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mizzix%27s+Mastery), Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine), Past in Flames (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Past+in+Flames)
So I've ordered these new cards and will update my list and adjust everything else around my win conditions.
Any other ideas would be helpful and thanks again for the help .
P.s. First deck was Krenko and I just added Altar of Dementia (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Altar+of+Dementia) , thanks again
I have a collecting of 350+ Goblin cards now.
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I like considering cards that can do 2 or more things as utility because you can run them to fit into 2 or more of the card slots allowing for more cards to make the rest of the deck stronger for example I don't consider cryptic command (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cryptic+Command) as a specific type of card it utility in a pinch it can be draw or removal or a counter leaving more space for what my deck wants to do on average I'll run 5-7 strict card draw because I have 3-5 other cards that can draw cards in my utility lists
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I mean, I built a Krenko, Mob Boss (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Krenko%2C+Mob+Boss) goblin tribal deck based around Tokens, but I threw in a Altar of Dementia (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Altar+of+Dementia) because I thought it would be funny to play it and see my opponent's reaction as I Mill them with a Red Deck. (It was also the only card that Milled in the deck.)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
This is awesome!
Sacrificing a goblin is the MTG equivalent of duct tape, there are just so many uses for them.
And it fixes everything. If it's not working, use more duct tape, or in our case SACRIFICE MORE GOBLINS!!!!!
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Who doesn't love sacrificing a goblin?
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Update, And Yes to everyone! EDH format is best when tailored to your colors and win condition. . I first set up my deck based on the formula below and found myself stalling out mid and late game, or worst yet noway to win. after everyone's help I went back and looked at and added some win conditions 4-5 2 without my commander and a few with my commander. Then I went back to my deck and adjusted everything. I changed 21 cards. Still learning the deck have a few more cards to change, but seems run better and last Sunday I win a game. (we help for the group) I'll share the new build of the deck below and thanks to everyone for their help.
Lands 32-35
Mana Ramp 10
Board Wipes 5
Card Draw 10
Single card removal 5
Stand alone cards 20
Enhancers 10
Enablers 5
https://deckstats.net/decks/107838/1260176-mizzix
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Who doesn't love sacrificing a goblin?
Someone who has been brainwashed by slivers and believes sacrificing creatures is bad.
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Who doesn't love sacrificing a goblin?
Someone who has been brainwashed by slivers and believes sacrificing creatures is bad.
Don't let those slivers do that to you!
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Who doesn't love sacrificing a goblin?
Someone who has been brainwashed by slivers and believes sacrificing creatures is bad.
Don't let those slivers do that to you!
😑😑😑 😑😑😑
😑😑😑😑😑😑
I'm only going to explain this because I think I did a bad job. The arrangement of my emojis are supposed to be in the shape of that emoji. So you have the two eyes (😑😑😑 for each eye) and the longer string of them for the mouth.
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(https://media1.tenor.com/images/d787d33adb362e8a7cfe38aa37194c20/tenor.gif?itemid=9682311)
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Update Sunday the June 30 game night At the local game store. This Deck won 1-3 Eight Player game (EDH) could have been 2 but, I missed played (MIzzix deck).
Last Sunday I Play other 8 player game won the first game with my Goblins. Turn eight 58 Goblin 1/1 buffed to +3 Flying, indestructible.
Eldrazi Monument (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Eldrazi-Monument), Goblin King (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Goblin+King), kill all 6 players, 1 lived, So Goblin Bombardment (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Goblin+Bombardment), said Sacrifice 58 goblins and punch them it the face. Number 7 dead.
To tell the truth I almost pissed my pants to see all the others just sit there and say what the F$*! just happened.
As for the Mizzix deck, misplays, Bad draws, and wining the first game , I stop with board control, and lost the next 2 games.
SO Yes,SACRIFICING GOBLINS is a lot like Yes Baby, Oh yes baby don't stop !!!!
https://deckstats.net/decks/107838/1146534-krenko-mob-boss
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Unless your average cmc is under 2, 32 to 35 lands as a starting point for the manabase is madness.
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Unless your average cmc is under 2, 32 to 35 lands as a starting point for the manabase is madness.
No it isn't. Mana ramp is something all decks should include. With enough mana ramp, you can comfortably use as little as 28 lands.