Deckstats Forum
English-language Forums => Commander Discussion => Topic started by: Morganator 2.0 on February 01, 2024, 04:02:25 pm
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https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/banned-list/
The banlist now includes an explanation as to why each card is banned.
Some of the explanations are laughably bad. About a third of them the reason is "this card is expensive, we don't want people to think commander is expensive". I get the impression that some poor sap had to do this, couldn't come up with a good reason to explain why the cards were banned, and then tried their best. One friend of mine is convinced that some of these are AI generated.
What do think of the reasons given?
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Very interesting. With card expense now being an official reason for card bannings (it has long been an unofficial reason), I feel like the Rules Committee needs to go through all the expensive cards, like Gaea's Cradle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gaea%27s+Cradle), and justify why they are NOT on the banlist.
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The "It's too expensive so ban" is asinine, but "It strips players of agency without outright ending the game" is pretty far up there too. Keeping anyone from doing anything until you can pull one of the few wincons you have is the entire point of stax type decks, so why are there not a lot more cards banned under that excuse too?
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If they start banning cards simply based off of the price of the card, I'll quit playing. Telling me I'd have to remove a Serra Sanctum or a Nether Void (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nether+Void) simply because they're expensive is ridiculous, they get deleted by 30 cent removal spells
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If they start banning cards simply based off of the price of the card, I'll quit playing. Telling me I'd have to remove a Serra Sanctum or a Nether Void (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nether+Void) simply because they're expensive is ridiculous, they get deleted by 30 cent removal spells
A wise person once said "If 'dies to removal' was a valid argument, permanents would never be on banned lists." And I trust that person, it's me.
While it's fun to point and laugh at how outdated the banlist is, I am glad that the rules committee did this. I'm hoping that seeing how players respond to these reasonings will cause them to re-evaluate why these cards are on the banlist and not similar cards.
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It's kinda weird... I read the Ancestral Recall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ancestral+Recall) one first and, to be fair, it sounds like a historic thing, explaining why it was originally banned, not why it should stay banned. And yeah "it makes people think they need to spend $$$ to win" (which is, by the way, pretty much still true) vs "it's absurdly overpowered, wth were they thinking when they read it?"... ???
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They liked to copy and paste I noticed on a few of the banned card reason. To use the copied/pasted quote " it's the effect on perceived barrier-to-entry that really posed a problem because casual players watching Commander games in passing could reasonably assume that they needed hundreds (now thousands) of dollars in power-9 as table stakes, just to join the format."
Ok fair enough but where exactly is this price point located? is it only in the power 9? Yet a casual player watching Commander in passing see's an OG duel land come into play. Just seeing 2 of those could pose thousands of dollars just to join the format. Even dropping the bar lower to say Jeweled Lotus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jeweled+Lotus) and Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt). We mind you possibly spending thousands but 100+ dollars for a single card to join the format is ok. Saying it is banned because it is pricey isn't valid because there are other cards that are in the Commander format that are pricey.
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If barrier to entry was really a problem, all reserved list cards should be banned automatically, because their reserved list status means there is a finite number of them around in the world. So while WotC could technically print a Jeweled Lotus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jeweled+Lotus) and Dockside Extortionist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dockside+Extortionist) for every Commander player on the planet and give them away for free, they can't do the same for Timetwister (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Timetwister) & co.
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There are a few there that I agree with. Cards that say start the game over, or guess what you have infinite turns now, or this card makes it impossible for anyone to play. I even agree that banning the power 9 simply because they're the power 9. But the price point thing is a little stupid. Like ya the moxxes are expensive but so are other things, at what point is something too expensive? Will we start banning duel lands next? And ya we want more people to play and not fork (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Fork) over thousands of dollars but you build any "powerful" deck and thats going to be a thing anyway. It sort of falls under buyer beware and i honestly recommend any new player buy a precon deck in order to get their feet wet. Now if things are expensive and required for a bunch of nut busting combos we can then bring that up for debate. As for resourse denial ones meh. Braids definitively but it is pretty easy to lock people out with some jank cards. I saw a deck that said skip your draw, skip your upkeep, choose to skip your main or your combat, skip your second main, skip your end step. none of those cards are on this list. (Before you ask specifics i don't know but it was mono black) It is worth asking if something is dening too much but I'll point out blood moon (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blood+Moon). It's in so many decks and if you play it and your opponents don't have red guess you're petty much sol. All that is to say ya I agree with some but they got to go back and give a good hard look and some and the reasons there in.
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Now if things are expensive and required for a bunch of nut busting combos we can then bring that up for debate.
You ban them for the combo, not for the price.
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You ban them for the combo, not for the price.
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Yeah, fair point.
P.S. I don't know how to do these quote things right.
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So while WotC could technically print a Jeweled Lotus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jeweled+Lotus) and Dockside Extortionist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dockside+Extortionist) for every Commander player on the planet and give them away for free, they can't do the same for Timetwister (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Timetwister) & co.
They could technically print whatever the heck they want - but they won't.
I even agree that banning the power 9 simply because they're the power 9. But the price point thing is a little stupid.
Eh, Timetwister (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Timetwister) isn't banned, and it's not any more problematic than loads of other non-Power-9 cards.
Honestly, most cards on the banlist are there for good reason. The banlist isn't great, the reasons given don't make a lot of sense, and there's no real consistency; I'm sure there are things that are banned that aren't as justified in being banned as cards that aren't, and vice versa. I don't think anybody is crying out for e.g. Tinker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tinker) or Shahrazad (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Shahrazad) to be unbanned, though.
Personally, I'd probably ban a lot more cards, including most likely everything that's already there... but then, I'm not really big on cEDH, or on pretending to play a game that I'm not. I know not everyone sees it the same way I do - but at the end (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=The+End) of the day, they really should pick a line and stick to it. All the price point stuff is kinda bonkers, especially with cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale) (which I obviously windmill slam into pretty much all my decks) still legal.
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I have a hard time believing that cost was actually a primary factor in any of the bannings. My guess is that may be a factor to why that particular stax piece or land destruction or whatever was banned, maybe as an example of cards that aren't generally acceptable, but not that it was the reason that it was even considered in the first place. I'm guessing that having an explanation is n overall good thing, but that the explanations need a little more context on what was happening at the time in the overall world of EDH. I'm also totally in favor of the banlist being centered only on cards that don't function as intended in the format based on their design, like cards that expect 40 life to be rare or expect you to run 4 of almost every card you play. I don't agree with about 70% of the cards being on the list, and think that any casual game doesn't really need a ban list.
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Here is the issue if Wotc did indeed start including cards like Jeweled Lotus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jeweled+Lotus), Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt), Dockside Extortionist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dockside+Extortionist) in pre-cons. Wotc would then increase the price of pre-cons which they all ready have done and then the price point entry to get into commander would turn some of the players off from the game as well. Then again there are people with a range of budgets of what they can or can't afford.
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That's not an issue with those cards, it's an issue with WotC's strategy... well, that, and the fact that so many people are still willing to pay silly-money for bits of cardboard.
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I am one of those that think that Commander does not need a banlist except the „ante“ cards, but a discussion previous to the game. There are players who play mainly to win, while others do want to have fun, regardless of the outcome. People who like primarily to win, will most likely streamline their decks and go for combos and so on for the optimal play. A lot of the cards in the banlist would make for nice additions in competitive situations, but would be out of place in casual pods, leading to a more pubstompy feel. Therefore, I think it would not matter as much in situations were the goals of the pod vs. one player would be at odds, because the situation would occur anyways if someone is going for that combo win. + certain cards or combination of them would lead to having a target on your back anyway. Where I would draw the line is for cEDH or official tournaments, where a banlist makes sense, just to keep a balanced feel to the game. Regarding the explanations given for some cards in the banlist, seems to adress the fear of creating a „pay to win“ feel.
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I'm also just now seeing this topic, and my main question is how the wording for their explanation for Sway of the Stars (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sway+of+the+Stars) doesn't also apply to Worldfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Worldfire). (Yes, I hate that card...can't you tell?) I also had to laugh a bit at the claim for Biorhythm (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Biorhythm), as if "oops, I killed someone, TOTES didn't mean to" isn't a hella toxic (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Toxic) attitude. OF COURSE you meant to, knock off with that crap.
I hard agree with the logic behind my two favorite cards and hope they'll ban the new Chthonian Nightmare (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Chthonian%20Nightmare&set=MH3&collector_number=83&language_code=en&_gl=1*1c5hzov*_ga*NDM0NTY5ODUxLjE2MDE5NDc1NjA.*_ga_5B17M3SGT9*MTcxNDUzNTk2OC4xNTQuMS4xNzE0NTM4MjIwLjAuMC4w) for being effectively the same thing most of the time. Yes, a whopping one more opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opportunity) for interaction, one that most casuals won't realize they have.
@ERMTD: I've already seen the line that "Oh no, 'cEDH' is getting its own (apparently sanctioned) tournaments, time to throw out the Rules Commitee and bring in the people that understand competitive Magic because Commander is now only a competitive format and should be treated as such", and think it's super dangerous. I'm only a Magic fan because other games don't have casual formats like Commander and I'd hate for the only format I like to lose the only reason I like it.
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@jlutzxinc I think I was misunderstood here. I am all for casual commander and cEDH is not my thing. What I was saying is, that as soon as the games are shaped towards the competitive form, where there might be something on the line, even if it is just a booster pack (including pre-releases), then a banlist is absolutely needed. Same counts for pods where you do not know the players. In kitchentable casual commander, if you have a pod that you know, I do not think that it is needed. It reminds me, when we starded playing with my playgroup again in 2017 in 60 card format, after more than 17 years of hiatus, we used 4 sol rings in every deck...because we did not know better and did not know the restrictions and banlist. Is it broken? Surely. But we had still fun and leveled the plainfield around it. If a player had more than two on the battlefield, he would probably be targeted and loose all or most sol rings. At the end (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=The+End) of the day, if you want to make a card or deck broken, you will find a way. It is up to the player and the pod to decide if they want to have fun or break the game.