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Other => Deck Comments => Topic started by: Comment Bot on July 07, 2017, 05:24:50 pm
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Mid Range Experiment Deck (https://deckstats.net/decks/88214/765373-mid-range-experiment-deck)
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Ok so I do see some good combo potential with this deck. So what are your initial thoughts on this deck build?
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After sleeping on it, I think this was actually a poor choice in attempting to build a mid-range deck. The reason (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Reason) I say that is because what I did was go through some of the cards that I already owned and tried to build a mid-range deck around that, what I really should have done, as this is an exercise, is just built a deck from scratch using the deck builder, talked about those choices until I understood the concept, then tried to build this deck. So, I will explain my thoughts and the process here on this deck, then I might try again, if you are up for it, on a deck from scratch, seeing if I fully grasped what I was about.
Thoughts on the build:
Cards I already owned: Bone Picker (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bone+Picker); Extricator of Sin (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Extricator+of+Sin); Regal Caracal (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Regal+Caracal); Thalia, Heretic Cathar (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thalia%2C+Heretic+Cathar); Path to Exile (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Path+to+Exile)
Reading about mid-range, I wanted to look at more powerful creatures in the mid-range cmc that also put out tokens or give a little control. Carrier Thrall (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Carrier+Thrall); Extricator of Sin (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Extricator+of+Sin); and Regal Caracal (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Regal+Caracal) all produce some form of token to help maintain combat control. The other creature provide some form of control or slow down for my opponent and I figure that Bone Picker (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bone+Picker) will play nicely from the sacrifice potential of Carrier Thrall (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Carrier+Thrall) and Extricator of Sin (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Extricator+of+Sin).
My Non-creature spells were a look at ways to slow my opponent down or put them off step as I am getting mana out there to play my creature. Hopefully some preventative with Inquisition (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Inquisition) and Thoughtseize (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thoughtseize) and a little response with Path to Exile (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Path+to+Exile).
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Lingering souls (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lingering+Souls); Doomed traveler (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Doomed+Traveler); Rally the Ancestors (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Rally+the+Ancestors); Immortal Servitude (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Immortal+Servitude); Cartel Aristocrat (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cartel+Aristocrat); Vizier of Remedies (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vizier+of+Remedies); Tidehollow Sculler (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tidehollow+Sculler); and almost any creature with the persist mechanic might be considerations. I would also suggest Bloodghast (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bloodghast). It is a good target for you to discard to your Liliana.
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I also forgot to mention that if you go down the route of focusing on getting value out of your creatures dying, Tragic slip (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tragic+Slip) is a good removal spell to consider. Also Blood Artist (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blood+Artist) & Zulaport cutthroat (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Zulaport+Cutthroat) are good options to give you some range other than flat out attacking wide.
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I also forgot to mention that if you go down the route of focusing on getting value out of your creatures dying, Tragic slip (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tragic+Slip) is a good removal spell to consider. Also Blood Artist (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blood+Artist) & Zulaport cutthroat (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Zulaport+Cutthroat) are good options to give you some range other than flat out attacking wide.
Hey Arich,
I appreciate the input. I am trying to get my head around the mechanics of a mid-range deck, and from what I understand, it seems a lot of those suggestions fit more into a pure (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pure) aggro deck. Am I wrong in that thought process?
I am not necessarily going down the road of getting value out of creatures dying, it was more an explanation of why I had Bone Picker (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bone+Picker) in there. My focus is more on trying to stabilize the board until my larger creature can get in and do some damage.
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Well remember that Mid-ranged is a combination between aggro and control depending on what you're trying to go for in the deck. If you want check out this deck and tell me your thoughts on it: https://deckstats.net/decks/24826/346037-mardu-mountain-hunters
How does this deck look to you as far as play styles goes?
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Well remember that Mid-ranged is a combination between aggro and control depending on what you're trying to go for in the deck. If you want check out this deck and tell me your thoughts on it: https://deckstats.net/decks/24826/346037-mardu-mountain-hunters
How does this deck look to you as far as play styles goes?
Remember, I am an amateur, so I am sure I am going to have some naive/ignorant responses. First thing I saw was how many "two-ofs" there are in this deck. I was always under the impression that was a bad idea as it creates a probability nightmare (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nightmare) and an unpredictable deck.
What I see from the creatures is that the lower CMC creatures tend towards life gain with a touch of removal, same with the instants, but mostly geared towards life gain. I think this is done so that there is longevity against a strong aggro deck. Life to survive the early attacks, or at least have enough health to make combat post turn 4 an option, and removal to take out the more powerful drops the opponent might bring.
The higher CMC cards feel like they are playing on returning creatures from the graveyard and flying. Which, I think, plays off the idea that the earlier cards are there to keep you viable to this point and then bringing back things so you dominate (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Dominate) the field. This would be, then, a mid-range deck that plays well against a strong aggro deck, but maybe not as strongly against a control deck.
Is this remotely on track?
(Did/do you work in education? I am a teacher and you are nailing some great teaching strategies and I really appreciate it a lot)
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I appreciate the compliment but no I do not work in education. On my spare time I like to use this forum and simple (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Simple) face to face (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Face+to+Face) encounters with people as a chance to teach and give deeper insight (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Insight) to how this game works. I play multiple games and I am actually in the process of getting my own games created. I simply want to provide as much important information that is needed in a way that is easy to process and understand.
But back to the deck, you are on track with the deck build and it's purpose. You're not as naive as you think you are. The majority of the deck is geared towards combat and it utilizes the land drops to trigger the retreat to emeria (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Retreat+to+Emeria) to keep popping out those Kor ally tokens. These tokens trigger the kalastria healer (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Kalastria+Healer) and when they die due to being sacrificed to the butcher of the horde (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Butcher+of+the+Horde) (a fitting name for its' purpose in this deck), it will also trigger the zulaport cutthroat (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Zulaport+Cutthroat). Combo that with the Kor bladewhirl (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Kor+Bladewhirl) and you've got a 5/4 flyer who will usually have life link AND vigilance (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vigilance) with first strike. This is how the deck was when I first constructed it and it actually goes great with Alesha who smiles at death (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Alesha%2C+Who+Smiles+at+Death) because she brings back ally creatures that are low enough with their CMC. See how that all works out?
As a game player I find that it is important to understand and look for the synergy in cards because when you find strong strategies that work in between just a few cards you will soon have the makings to an entire deck. So looking at my deck and all the possible areas that you pointed out, what can you say about your deck that you built? Do you see any areas of improvement? Any synergies that you would like to try out and experiment? Any cards that do not fit the overall theme of the deck? These are the kinds of questions that lead to a great deck build because it makes you change how you think based on the kind of deck that you are building.
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Looking at it, Gonti, Lord of Luxury (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Gonti%2C+Lord+of+Luxury) doesn't fit. There are some synergistic elements with the tokens, but the play of token creation and sacrifice doesn't feel smooth. This actually feels like it should be learning towards a more aggro style and doesn't fit together well at all.
I am going to fiddle around and take another stab at it.
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Okay, here is another deck. Again, I am using some cards that I already have and am trying to make it work with what I got, or at least spending very little.
https://deckstats.net/decks/88214/767071-trueblood
I don't think it has the same level of synergy that your deck has, but I feel like I am moving more in that direction. Here is what I was thinking with this deck;
Lifelink (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lifelink) to keep me viable as an opponent so I can get my larger later drops. I also wanted to make sure I had some quicker, less powerful, creatures so that I could get early life as well as use them as bate for some of my instants and use my noncreature spells as spot removal. As I already owned Baleful Ammit (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Baleful+Ammit) and he seemed to fit the deck, I wanted to make that -1/-1 work for me, so I thought Tenacious Hunter (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tenacious+Hunter) would do nicely. This feels a lot more cohesive than my other deck.
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Ok so looking at your deck it doesn't look that bad actually. Now since you are leaning towards the Amonkhet set I think that the majority of your deck's focus should be centered around this set. This way the majority of your cards share their synergy.
With the spells that do spot removal as you said: ambuscade (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ambuscade) would be a great card to have because it lets you deal damage (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Deal+Damage) to creatures (which will be lethal since your creatures have death touch), cartouche of strength (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cartouche+of+Strength) would be good because it gives your creature trample, +1/+1 stat boost, AND it fights another creature so not only does it serve (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Serve) as a kil spell but it makes your surviving creature more dangerous (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Dangerous) on the field. Exemplar of strength (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Exemplar+of+Strength) is good because it's a strong low drop that already comes with its -1/-1 counters (that you can place either on itself or another creature). But when it attacks it's gaining you health so that's a plus. Synchronized strike (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Synchronized+Strike) gives your creatures that already attacked a stat boost and untaps them. This is a great combat trick if you want to bait your opponent and then instantly untap your death touch creatures.
The main thing about this deck is that you need to place -1/-1 counters on creatures (Whether it be yours or your opponent's ) in order to get some good triggers for your effects. Even adding soulstinger (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Soulstinger) to this deck would be good because popping him after loading him with -1/-1 counters will certainty kill larger creatures. Also if you wanted to try it, adding nest of scarabs (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nest+of+Scarabs) would be a good idea because whenever a -1/-1 counter is placed anywhere by you, you get a 1/1 creature that you could drop your -1/-1 counters on later. This way your baleful ammit (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Baleful+Ammit) and even crocodile of the crossing (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Crocodile+of+the+Crossing) can come in full strength without limiting themselves. What do you think of these suggestions so far?
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I really like, and deeply appreciate, your suggestions. I am indeed leaning towards Amonkhet as that is the set I bought to get back into the game and have a ton of random cards from the starter and booster set. On one hand I don't want to limit myself too much, on the other, I am trying to use a little of what I got on hand first, economy wise.
I thought about it a lot and I think that you were right for some real synergy potential with Soulstinger (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Soulstinger) and having a place for my negatives or at least making them work harder for me. I'll post what I changed and get your thoughts. I am curious though, looking at some of your decks, you don't seem overly concerned with the amount of one-ofs and two-ofs that you have. Am I just being overly anxious about the probabilities or is it that I am looking to hard at the card name. In other words, is it that it seems like there are a lot of one-ofs, but because they do such similar things that they are lumped together in your build and don't upset the game play?
Revision 2 (https://deckstats.net/decks/88214/767071-trueblood?revision=1)
Added/removed cards:
-3 Stonefare Crocodile (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Stonefare+Crocodile)
+2 Ambuscade (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ambuscade)
+2 Cartouche of Strength (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cartouche+of+Strength)
+3 Soulstinger (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Soulstinger)
Changed amounts:
-1 Blossoming Defense (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blossoming+Defense)
-1 Cartouche of Ambition (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cartouche+of+Ambition)
-1 Rabid Bite (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Rabid+Bite)
-1 Supernatural Stamina (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Supernatural+Stamina)
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I'm going to respond to your last post in two parts. Part A for the deck and Part B for the opinions on my decks.
Part A) Looking at your deck it looks like you have the spell base looking pretty good. I would recommend adding and taking away from the creature base. I see that you have 3 copies of each creature but if you add some other creatures that add to the synergy of the deck (rather than just for their effects) then you'll see some faster plays. For example, if you add the Champion of Rhonas (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Champion+of+Rhonas) then when you exert him you can play say for instance soulstinger (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Soulstinger). He would enter the field with his (-1/-1) counters and this would enable the ability of tenacious hunter (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tenacious+Hunter) to gain his deathtouch and vigilance (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vigilance). Having creatures that play into the effectiveness of the deck will help it run faster and in a more optimal manner. For example: play Splendid agony (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Splendid+Agony) on your opponent's creatures while you have nest of scarabs (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nest+of+Scarabs) on the field with Hapatra, Vizier of poisons (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Hapatra%2C+Vizier+of+Poisons). This would give you 1 death touch snake token, two (1/1) scarab tokens. You are getting 3 creatures off of 1 spell trigger. That is optimal playing. Then if you pop your own soulstinger (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Soulstinger) then if it died with 6x (-1/-1) counters then it'll produce 6x (-1/-1) scarab tokens with the enchantment which would still trigger the tenacious hunter (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tenacious+Hunter). If anything having the archetype of finality (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Archetype+of+Finality) would help this deck because you'd be creating SOOOOOO many tokens and they'd ALLLLLLL have death touch. That's what you'd want this deck to do and it would be both dangerous (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Dangerous) and effective. This is where the new spells such as without weakness (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Without+Weakness), ambuscade (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ambuscade), lethal sting (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lethal+Sting) would aid in the aggressiveness of the deck and with the Champion of Rhonas (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Champion+of+Rhonas) you can sneak in big creatures such as scrounger of souls (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Scrounger+of+Souls) for free. If you want to sneak in more creatures untap it using synchronized strike (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Synchronized+Strike) and spidery grasp (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spidery+Grasp) to use next turn ignoring the drawback of the exert.
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Part B) As far as my decks go I'm not concerned with the 1 & 2 ofs in my decks because with the way that I build my decks I always get what I need. My consistency isn't in how many of a card that i have, its HOW many cards work WITH the cards that I'm playing. Let me give you an example: looking at my mardu deck I have two separate ways to beat down the opponent, really 3:
Option 1 - Use the ally triggers from my Zulaport cutthroat (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Zulaport+Cutthroat) and Kalastria healer (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Kalastria+Healer) to drain my opponent of health and reduce them down to zero.
Option 2 - Use the enchantment retreat to emeria (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Retreat+to+Emeria) and united front (with multiple colors) to create Kor ally tokens (which also trigger the other two allies that I mentioned) and to also sacrifice to the butcher of the horde (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Butcher+of+the+Horde) and steal the game in an air fight using him.
Option 3 - Make a Kor army and with the ally triggers from kor Bladewhirl (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Kor+Bladewhirl) to give EVERYBODY first strike and go on the aggro against my opponent with an army of warriors.
The reason why I'm not so worried about how many copies I have is because I don't focus the deck to do one particular thing. I make the decks so that ALL the cards that go into it are so synergistic that I can run multiple strategies at once and weave my plays around what the opponent is doing and always have a play. Too much of one thing and cards that contribute to one strategy can keep your deck from being flexible enough to bend toward another play style when your original plan no longer works. let me say a quote that I hope you remember; "WHEN EVERYONE WORKS TOWARDS FEEDING EACH OTHER NO ONE GOES HUNGRY." I build my decks with that mindset, when every card I play helps multiple creatures and serves multiple purposes then I am never at a disadvantage.
That's also one reason why I don't like building the minimum on my deck builds all the time. Some of my decks are larger than 60 cards (at the pre-release the decks were 20 cards bigger than everyone else's.) even though their decks were effective in defeating mine, my decks ran effectively (except the abzan deck which even I admit could have done better with more supporting cards that I didn't have). But focusing on deck sizes and probabilities for a moment, even if you have a smaller deck with multiple copies of a card, having a bigger deck that has just as many multiples of cards doesn't change the percent ratio for draws and probable plays.
If I run 4 copies of soulstinger (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Soulstinger) in a 60 card deck then I have a 7% chance of drawing that card (4/60 = 0.066) If I run 4 copies of soulstinger (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Soulstinger) in a 70 card deck then I have a 6% chance of drawing it (4/70 = 0.057). But here's the thing people forget (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Forget): when you play cards that mill you out and draw from the deck and put lands from your deck onto the battlefield then you are THINNING your deck which increases the probability of drawing those cards even more.
An average game (me versus an opponent would look like this);
Opponent (60 cards) Me (70 cards)
Draw 7 = 53 Draw 7= 63
Turn 1= takes 1st, no draw, pass = 53 Turn 1= draw, pass= 62
Turn 2= draw 1, play land, pass = 52 Turn 2= draw, play land, pass = 61
Turn 3= draw 1, play a creature, pass = 51 Turn 3= draw, play Spring // Mind (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spring+%2F%2F+Mind), land hits field, pass = 59
Turn 4= draw 1, play a spell, attack, pass = 50 Turn 4= draw, play land (the 5th) on field, play a creature, pass = 58
Turn 5= draw 1, play a creature, pass= 49 Turn 5= draw, land on turn, aftermath Spring // Mind (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Spring+%2F%2F+Mind), draw, pass= 55
If you look at these two decks 49 (still in the deck) divided by the starting (60 cards) means that: 49/60= 0.81.6 or 82% of this deck is still present to be used. For my deck 55/70 = 0.785 or 79% of my deck is still present to be utilized.
Even though the numbers can get confusing sometimes and we get worried about the chances, how you construct the deck mitigates the chances because by removing more of the deck in a more synergistic approach by executing plays actually helps the deck. I could play creatures such as vizier of the anointed (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vizier+of+the+Anointed) and he himself reduces the size of my deck by not only being drawn but taking another card from the deck and putting it straight in the grave. That's two cards in one turn. How I build the deck and the synergy the cards have with each other increases the draw probability of cards while also pushing the goal of the deck. The size of the deck does not matter to me because if I want it I build my deck so that I always get what I need. Make the deck work for you and you won’t have to leave it up to chance.
P.S. (the math is done to the best of my abilities 3am in the morning but should serve (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Serve) as a decent example of the percentages).
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Part A)
The Vampire Cutthroat (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vampire+Cutthroat) and the Child of Night (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Child+of+Night) are nice for the lifelink (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lifelink), but ultimately they are not increasing the synergy of my deck. Replacing them with Champion of Rhonas (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Champion+of+Rhonas) and Hapatra, Vizier of poisons (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Hapatra%2C+Vizier+of+Poisons) seems like a better fit at the least. As well as Splendid Agony (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Splendid+Agony) might be a better fit than say Supernatural Stamina (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Supernatural+Stamina). All those suggestions make a lot of sense. Your totally right, I am missing out on a large opportunity (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Opportunity) to take advantage of a army of deathtouch tokens.
Part B)
That all makes a lot of sense. That was some of the impression that I was getting. Because the cards mechanically work so similarly or synergistically, the number of a specific card in a set deck size is less important that the ratios of like cards to make the deck function.
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I couldn't of said it better myself. And i'd hod on to that supernatural stamina (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Supernatural+Stamina). Combo that with soulstinger (http://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Soulstinger) or your vital life link creatures will save you so many resources when your opponent doesn't realize that you can bring back your vital combo pieces at instant speed.