Deckstats Forum
English-language Forums => General Magic => Topic started by: Slappy T-Rex on April 06, 2019, 10:24:20 pm
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I'm looking for some advice on how these cards interact. Here's the scenario - I make a token of Greenwarden of Murasa (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Greenwarden+of+Murasa) using either Feldon of the third path (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Feldon+of+the+Third+Path) or Kiki-Jiki, mirror breaker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Kiki-Jiki%2C+Mirror+Breaker). When the token enters the battlefield Greenwarden's ability triggers and I return a card from my graveyard to my hand. My question is, at the end of the turn when I sacrifice the token of Greenwarden can I use its ability to exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile) it instead, and return an additional card from my graveyard to my hand? My gut says yes, but I just want to make sure before I make any assumptions.
Thanks in advance for the help.
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The second ability of Greenwarden of Murasa (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Greenwarden+of+Murasa) is a triggered ability. It triggers with Greenwarden of Murasa (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Greenwarden+of+Murasa) dies. Here's how that plays out:
1) At the beginning of the end step, you sacrifice the token copy of Greenwarden of Murasa (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Greenwarden+of+Murasa). The token does actually go to the graveyard.
2) The second ability triggers and goes on the stack. Nothing is exiled at this point, only when this ability resolves.
3) Priority passes.
4) When priority passes, state based actions are checked. (When a creature has more damage marked on it than it has toughness, State-based actions are what put it in the graveyard. State-based actions also make tokens in any zone other than the battlefield disappear (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Disappear) from existence.) The token vanishes from the graveyard at this point.
5) The Greenwarden ability resolves. When it gets to the part that says "you may exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile) {this}", the token has long-since vanished. It cannot be exiled to this ability.
Sorry. You do not get the benefit in this case.
Happy Brewing!
:)
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Thanks for the explanation. Sometimes these interactions can make my head spin.
I had one other scenario I was wondering about:
If I have Parrallel Lives on the battlefield and make a second token of Greenwarden of Murasa (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Greenwarden+of+Murasa), would that token also have to be sacrificed? Or would it remain in the battlefield since Kiki-Jiki/Feldon's abilities only state that the token they create needs to be sacrificed? My thought was that the second token would remain (since it was created by Parrallel Lives and not Kiki-Jiki/Feldon), but I was wrong on the previous question so I'm not so sure anymore.
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Thanks for the explanation. Sometimes these interactions can make my head spin.
I had one other scenario I was wondering about:
If I have Parrallel Lives on the battlefield and make a second token of Greenwarden of Murasa (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Greenwarden+of+Murasa), would that token also have to be sacrificed? Or would it remain in the battlefield since Kiki-Jiki/Feldon's abilities only state that the token they create needs to be sacrificed? My thought was that the second token would remain (since it was created by Parrallel Lives and not Kiki-Jiki/Feldon), but I was wrong on the previous question so I'm not so sure anymore.
The token would stay because it is a property of feldon that he token gets sacrificed, not a property of the token itself so it doesnt get copied.
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Thanks! That's what I thought, but I'm glad to get a second opinion.
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The token would stay because it is a property of feldon that he token gets sacrificed, not a property of the token itself so it doesnt get copied.
Actually. This is NOT correct. I should say, though, that the initial logic does seem sound. Indeed, it is what I thought would happen. I was recently corrected.
There is a ruling that "If the effect creating the tokens instructs you to do something with those tokens at a later time, like exiling them at the end of combat, you’ll do that for all the tokens." This ruling is on Parallel Lives (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Parallel+Lives) and Anointed Procession (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Anointed+Procession) specifically. I assume it would apply to Doubling Season (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doubling+Season) as well. This ruling was made last updated by WotC about 2 years ago when Amonkhet was released.
As I mentioned, I initially thought it would be the other way. I have searched through the Comprehensive Rules for exactly. Right now all I have is the official ruling. If anyone out there has a specific rule reference for this, much appreciated.
Again, Sorry about your luck.
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The token Feldon creates comes in with the imaginary words text “sacrifice on next end step.” Parallel Lives (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Parallel+Lives) creates and exact copy of that token so it comes in with the same text.
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Ghost is correct :) Per ruling on the gatherer at Wizards
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249662
9/22/2011
If the effect creating the tokens instructs you to do something with those tokens at a later time, like exiling them at the end of combat, you’ll do that for all the tokens.
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Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I'm 0 for 2 on how I thought these interactions would work. I'm glad I asked!
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The token would stay because it is a property of feldon that he token gets sacrificed, not a property of the token itself so it doesnt get copied.
Actually. This is NOT correct. I should say, though, that the initial logic does seem sound. Indeed, it is what I thought would happen. I was recently corrected.
There is a ruling that "If the effect creating the tokens instructs you to do something with those tokens at a later time, like exiling them at the end of combat, you’ll do that for all the tokens." This ruling is on Parallel Lives (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Parallel+Lives) and Anointed Procession (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Anointed+Procession) specifically. I assume it would apply to Doubling Season (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doubling+Season) as well. This ruling was made last updated by WotC about 2 years ago when Amonkhet was released.
As I mentioned, I initially thought it would be the other way. I have searched through the Comprehensive Rules for exactly. Right now all I have is the official ruling. If anyone out there has a specific rule reference for this, much appreciated.
Again, Sorry about your luck.
Hmm. Embarrassing :-[
That does seem odd because why wouldn't feldon just say it has "At the beginning of the end step sacrifice it"? But I guess I can't think of a card that does say the tokens have that ability. Good to know seeing as how my meta seems to have an increasing number of those pesky token doublers.
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why wouldn't feldon just say it has "At the beginning of the end step sacrifice it"?
Good question. This goes on my list of poor templates.
There are more than a handful of examples of cards like this, like Confusion in the Ranks (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Confusion+in+the+Ranks), where a much less confusing template would not be significantly longer.
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why wouldn't feldon just say it has "At the beginning of the end step sacrifice it"?
Good question. This goes on my list of poor templates.
There are more than a handful of examples of cards like this, like Confusion in the Ranks (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Confusion+in+the+Ranks), where a much less confusing template would not be significantly longer.
So I was thinking and I guess it makes a little sense why the ruling is how it is. Parallel lives (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Parallel+Lives) is a replacement affect, causing Feldon or Kikijiki to create double the tokens as opposed to parallel lives (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Parallel+Lives) making one and feldon making one. So I can kind of see the logic. I guess we could read cards like feldon as exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile) all tokens created this way at the beginning of the next end step.