Deckstats Forum
English-language Forums => Commander Discussion => Topic started by: WWolfe on March 06, 2020, 05:31:34 pm
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Are the slow fetches (like Bad River (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bad+River) & Mountain Valley (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mountain+Valley)) that come into play tapped worth running? It operates almost at the same speed as Evolving Wilds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Evolving+Wilds) when you stop and think about it but they will grab you a dual land. It's not like Evolving Wilds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Evolving+Wilds) doesn't see play in EDH, according to EDHRec it's in 39% of 291,648 decks currently eligible to play it.
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I think their worth running with the same caveats as evolving wilds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Evolving+Wilds).
If fixing is super important to your deck, but you're budget wont stretch to fast fetches, then they're fine.
I personally wouldn't run these in addition to fast fetches. I think if you can afford the good mana bases with fetches, duals and shocks then these aren't worth it and I'd run basics over them.
They seem to exist in a weird middle ground. If you want fetches but don't want to spend the money on them, you probably don't have the lands to accompany them to make them good. There are the other cycles of lands with the appropriate types like the Amonkhet dual cycling lands, but then you are running glacially slow. If you're playing budget but happened to crack a couple of shocks in the recent Ravnica sets then they're worth it.
Additionally, if your meta is slow and casual enough that a fast mana base isn't super important, then they're still decent enough. If that is the case, you're probably not spending too much on your decks anyway.
I like them over Evolving Wilds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Evolving+Wilds) in two or three colour decks because they work the other way around. Wilds enters untapped but the land you get is tapped. These enter tapped, but what they get (probably) doesn't. This allows you to use them more responsively. Say you're playing Scarab God and you have a Bad River (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bad+River) untapped. You've got Swan Song (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Swan+Song) and Tragic Slip (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tragic+Slip) in your hand. Suddenly, being able to get one or the other untapped is real nice. You can be responsive in what you get and get all the upside from it depending on the board state and appropriate threat assessment.
They're probably one of the first things you upgrade when you're looking to take your deck to the next level, but for the most part I think they're good enough for those middling decks.
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Sure. Basically what CleanBelwas said.
If you need the color fixing and the budget constraints, go for it.
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Like almost all lands that enter tapped, I think they are not worth it.
Except in niched circumstances with a commander like Korvold, Fae-Cursed King (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Korvold%2C+Fae-Cursed+King) and you aren't able to use the expensive fetches, they aren't great. Even in that example they might be good.
If you're just using them for color fixing, you can find something else.
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Like almost all lands that enter tapped, I think they are not worth it.
Except in niched circumstances with a commander like Korvold, Fae-Cursed King (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Korvold%2C+Fae-Cursed+King) and you aren't able to use the expensive fetches, they aren't great. Even in that example they might be good.
If you're just using them for color fixing, you can find something else.
Can you tell what the alternatives are? Are you excluding budget or talking about faywarer's bauble and such?
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If you're not willing to spend more than $1 on lands, then your alternatives are basic lands. I'm not kidding, basic lands work better than tap lands. Once you get to a 3-color deck you'll run into problems, but with 2 colors, basic lands work just fine.
If you're looking for cheap alternatives there is stuff like Exotic Orchard (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exotic+Orchard), Mirrodin's Core (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mirrodin%27s+Core), Command Tower (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Command+Tower), Ash Barrens (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ash+Barrens), Spire of Industry (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Spire+of+Industry), pain lands (ex: Caves of Koilos (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Caves+of+Koilos)), reveal lands (ex: Game Trail (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Game+Trail)), and tainted lands (Tainted Wood (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tainted+Wood)).
If you're willing to spend a little more money on lands, look for lands that either enter untapped (Forbidden Orchard (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Forbidden+Orchard)) or lands that conditionally enter untapped (Spirebluff Canal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Spirebluff+Canal)).
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The only deck, regardless of budget, that I'd consider slow fetches for is Tatyova
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I don't really like the slow fetches at all. If you're getting landfall triggers, I much prefer Evolving Wilds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Evolving+Wilds)/Terramorphic Expanse (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Terramorphic+Expanse). (Actually I prefer the fast fetches but we're ignoring those for now.) With Evolving Wilds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Evolving+Wilds), you get to play that land, then crack it for 2 triggers in the same turn. With the slow fetches you play the land this turn, but can't crack it until next turn.
If you're looking for cheap alternatives there is stuff like ... Ash Barrens (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ash+Barrens).
I beg to differ. Ash Barrens (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ash+Barrens) is no better than a tap land. You have to pay 1 mana to cycle for a basic.
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It can tap for colorless immediately. In the early game it gets you your color. In the late game you don't need to search.
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The Panoramas (Grixis Panorama (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Grixis+Panorama), etc.) are awesome, especially in their respective 3 color decks. They enter untapped, can tap for colorless if need be, only cost 1 mana to sac, and fix your colors extremely well. I would highly consider these over slow fetches. Extremely flexible and powerful.
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I don't like them. If I feel like I need additional colorfixing, I prefere to rely on Ash Barrens (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Ash+Barrens) and Fabled Passage (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Fabled+Passage). Both maybe aren't that great, but they at least offer some kind of flexibility for the mid and late game.
Besides that, if you want to upgrade your manabase, but don't want to spend your money on shocks or fetches, Battle lands (e.g. Prairie Stream (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Prairie+Stream)) and check lands (e.g. Glacial Fortress (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Glacial+Fortress)) work fine, at least if you don't aim for a turn 3-4 victory. ;)
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So let's explain why I asked this, recently a friend started playing the slow fetches in his lands and his mana base seems smooth so I dug out one of my old Bad Rivers and I've been play testing it in Sidisi just for shits and giggles. Naturally I've yet to draw it so I was looking for the opinion of others on it. I really don't like the thought of it but another card that can tutor for duals seems like a good idea, in theory anyway. The more I've thought about it though the more convinced I am that instead of Bad River (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bad+River) I really should just run another basic Swamp (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Swamp) as black heavy as the deck is.
Thanks for the thoughts though.
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So let's explain why I asked this, recently a friend started playing the slow fetches in his lands and his mana base seems smooth...
Back when I made my earlier versions of Scion of the Ur-Dragon (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scion+of+the+Ur-Dragon), I used the vivid cycle, shard lands, Gemstone Mine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gemstone+Mine), and Cascading Cataracts (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cascading+Cataracts), etc...just because I valued color fixing more than speed. I always got all of my colors, but that deck was SLOW.
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I actually voted yes but with the idea that you're running both panoramas and slow fetches, preferably with the cycling lands with dual typing. The slow fetches are good for fixing in a budget deck but they'll make everything slooooow. Now that I think about it more it's still probably better to run all the Signets and Talismans for fixing in a 5c deck. I would change my vote if I could.
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I voted no because they do actually make things slower. I admit I run some in a couple of my decks but mainly because they were pre-cons and I haven't really upgraded those decks. It seems to me you are playing catch up all game long which means you have to survive long enough and get into the end game to actually win
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The speed is the biggest reason I've been hoping to draw Bad River (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bad+River). To see how much it slows the deck down. I don't think I'm going to bother waiting to draw it to see. Like I said, the more I've studied the mana base since the last updates the more black heavy the deck is and that spot would be better served by a basic swamp (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Swamp).
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I've taken a look at your Sidisi deck. You're already running City of Brass (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=City+of+Brass), Mana Confluence (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Confluence), and Prismatic Vista (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Prismatic+Vista). (Not to mention the original duals.) All very fast. I'm not sure why you want to mess with something called a "slow fetch". If you're ok with a tap land for color fixing, I would suggest one that can get you ALL 3 of your colors - Opulent Palace (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opulent+Palace).
Your ramp package is very small. I only counted 4 pieces of ramp (Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), Golgari Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Golgari+Signet), Arcane Signet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcane+Signet), and Phyrexian Altar (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Phyrexian+Altar)). I would suggest a few more. Since this is Sidisi, I would suggest some creature based ramp - like Birds of Paradise (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Birds+of+Paradise), Elves of Deep Shadow (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Elves+of+Deep+Shadow), Llanowar Elves (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Llanowar+Elves), Blood Pet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blood+Pet), etc.
Where you having any specific mana problems that prompted the original question about Bad River (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bad+River)?
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I really haven't had any mana problems even with the limited ramp. I've had some of the creature based ramp before but removed it for more zombies. The deck runs pretty fast as it is. I think it's just a case of wanting to fix something that isn't broken out of an attempt to make the deck "perfect".
ETA- I've decided I probably should add some more ramp, two pieces of creature based ramp and Farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) but I went into the problem I'm having with doing that atm in another thread.