Deckstats Forum
English-language Forums => Commander Discussion => Topic started by: Morganator 2.0 on November 18, 2021, 06:00:35 pm
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We all know Muldrotha the Gravetide (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Muldrotha%2C+the+Gravetide) right? It's kind of annoying how their entire graveyard becomes a second hand, making most removal only a temporary solution. And let's not act like there aren't other commanders that bring cards back. Araumi of the Dead Tide (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Araumi+of+the+Dead+Tide), Kenrith, the Returned King (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Kenrith%2C+the+Returned+King), Kess, Dissident Mage (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Kess%2C+Dissident+Mage), Meren of Clan Nel Toth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Meren+of+Clan+Nel+Toth), Sevinne, the Chronoclasm (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sevinne%2C+the+Chronoclasm). There are a wack-ton of commanders get to re-use cards. To top it off, a lot of combo decks will have recursion. There are many decks that interact with graveyards.
So... why aren't we using grave-hate?
It seems like we always have room to slot in removal spells, but shouldn't we also include some grave-hate too? A simple Soul-Guide Lantern (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Soul-Guide+Lantern) or Ground Seal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ground+Seal) can go a long way to reducing the strength of these decks. I think the biggest issue is that we worry that we'll be including dead cards. That our Rest in Peace (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rest+in+Peace) will be next to useless if no one is playing a graveyard deck. But I'm starting to see the opposite; there will almost always be some amount of graveyard interaction in a pod. Someone will use an Archaeomancer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Archaeomancer), or a spell with flashback, or something to reanimate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Reanimate) creatures. Grave-hate is useful.
I've been experimenting with a few of my decks and found that including just a little bit of grave-hate can help. You'll need to make sure it's either a continuous effect (Leyline of the Void (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Leyline+of+the+Void)) or instant-speed exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile) (Scavenging Ooze (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scavenging+Ooze)). One-time sorcery speed does not help (so not Bojuka Bog (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bojuka+Bog)). As someone who plays a graveyard-based deck, I know that a little grave-hate can give those decks trouble. So why do we collectively use so little?
I say we shouldn't. It's time to use grave-hate people. Do you all agree with me? Do you currently use grave-hate? Should players be using more grave-hate?
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Wasted card slot. I’m more interested in advancing my board state then having to slot a card that does nothing for me.
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I've been noticing that in my meta lately too. It seems like more and more cards are using the graveyard. And specifically more commanders. So the strategy is becoming much more prevalent. With my next build I was going to slot in some graveyard hate. I've been meaning to look up some anti-graveyard options.
robort: do you not run any removal of any kind? Or counterspells? Think of graveyard hate as removal of an entire zone.
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Personally, I love playing graveyard decks. I have a Meren deck, an Araumi deck and a Syr Konrad deck.
However, I also play Scavenging Ooze (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scavenging+Ooze) in basically every green deck, Bojuka Bog (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bojuka+Bog) and Dauthi Voidwalker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dauthi+Voidwalker) in every black one and Scavenger Grounds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scavenger+Grounds) in any other color.
In particular I think that Scavenger Grounds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scavenger+Grounds) is a phenomenal grave hate piece, since it slots in basically every deck (if you don't care about your graveyard) and the opportunity (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Opportunity) cost of running it is so low. It's also budget friendly! It think it should go in basically every deck.
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Wasted card slot. I’m more interested in advancing my board state then having to slot a card that does nothing for me.
It does something for you: it stops you from losing ;)
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I run either Bojuka Bog (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bojuka+Bog) or Scavenger Grounds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scavenger+Grounds) in pretty much every deck I build. It's worth the land slot to completely nuke the Muldrotha player's graveyard.
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Wasted card slot. I’m more interested in advancing my board state then having to slot a card that does nothing for me.
It does something for you: it stops you from losing ;)
If I was so worried about losing I would just run nothing but stax decks 😃. But seriously I don’t worry about winning or losing a game that has no ramifications in my life.
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If I was so worried about losing I would just run nothing but stax decks 😃. But seriously I don’t worry about winning or losing a game that has no ramifications in my life.
This. I love this.
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Wasted card slot. I’m more interested in advancing my board state then having to slot a card that does nothing for me.
It does something for you: it stops you from losing ;)
If I was so worried about losing I would just run nothing but stax decks 😃. But seriously I don’t worry about winning or losing a game that has no ramifications in my life.
Well sure, no one is going to tell you how to play or enjoy this game, but it's quite clear to me that this whole thread was on how to improve your chances of winning, by stopping your opponents from abusing their graveyard :)
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Wasted card slot. I’m more interested in advancing my board state then having to slot a card that does nothing for me.
It does something for you: it stops you from losing ;)
If I was so worried about losing I would just run nothing but stax decks 😃. But seriously I don’t worry about winning or losing a game that has no ramifications in my life.
Well sure, no one is going to tell you how to play or enjoy this game, but it's quite clear to me that this whole thread was on how to improve your chances of winning, by stopping your opponents from abusing their graveyard :)
Abusing or Playing a viable strategy? Oh wait I will improve my chances on winning against this playable strategy by playing cards that say "you can't play" this viable strategy.
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Abusing or Playing a viable strategy? Oh wait I will improve my chances on winning against this playable strategy by playing cards that say "you can't play" this viable strategy.
I'm sorry to say this but you sound a bit upset. Everything okay? :)
A lot of times people play "you can't play" cards. My friend puts Collector Ouphe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Collector+Ouphe) in a lot of his decks because he knows artifact ramp is prevalent (in our meta, at least). It's a bit of a silver bullet but very effective at that. Plus artifact ramp isn't particularly rare so the card is very often useful.
I play counterspells as my first line of defense. Just to make sure nobody messes with my plans. "Destroy" effects become significantly less powerful if someone can recur/reanimate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Reanimate) cards from their grave. My Medomai the Ageless (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Medomai+the+Ageless) doesn't particularly care about its grave so I play Rest in Peace (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rest+in+Peace) in the deck, just to shut down other people's graves. There are a lot of Eternal Witness (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Eternal+Witness) -type effects in our meta, at least. Some of them are combos that win the game so it only makes sense to have an answer to those.
It's not so much about metagaming, it's more about being prepared for all kinds of threats. Sometimes it's easier to win by stopping someone else than it is to race them in a ramp/draw war. My plans often get foiled by "silver bullets" such as Teferi, Time Raveler (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Teferi%2C+Time+Raveler) which is just coincidental but it means I need to be prepared for it. This is also why I like versatile and multimodal cards even if they cost a little more to cast. Much easier to deal with stuff with an Anguished Unmaking (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Anguished+Unmaking) in your hand.
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Abusing or Playing a viable strategy? Oh wait I will improve my chances on winning against this playable strategy by playing cards that say "you can't play" this viable strategy.
You're not necessarily stopping them from playing, you're just evening the playing field. While grave-hate can be annoying it can be worked around, in the same way that other decks are inconvenienced by removal, counterspells, and protection spells. Most decks get their card advantage from drawing cards, while graveyard decks can also use their graveyard. You're just denying them the additional advantage that other decks don't have. Fair is fair.
And to help you out ApothecaryGeist, I started by using grave-hate that can incidentally draw you a card. Stuff like Ground Seal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ground+Seal), Nihil Spellbomb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nihil+Spellbomb), Relic of Progenitus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Relic+of+Progenitus), and Soul-Guide Lantern (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Soul-Guide+Lantern). That way if there really is not deck that abuses their grave, you can still get something out of it. Another really good card is Containment Priest (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Containment+Priest). She stops not just grave-hate, but many other things like Ilharg, the Raze-Boar (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ilharg%2C+the+Raze-Boar) and Atla Palani, Nest Tender (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Atla+Palani%2C+Nest+Tender).
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I would go as far as to say most archetypes have pieces of graveyard hate that they can include in their deck while still being in keeping with their own strategy / game plan (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Game+Plan) / synergies.
Whether you're in Lands, Artifacts, Enchantress, Big Idiot Creatures, Super friends, Tribal, there will likely be something that can keep graveyards in check while still synergising with your deck.
At the very least, if I can't find anything like this for a deck (for example, I struggle with Izzet Spellslinger), I'll stick in a scavenger grounds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scavenger+Grounds). The cost of inclusion is very small (it enters untapped, can tap for a colourless and the only time you'd really prefer a basic is in your opening hand / early game) and it might save your ass.
I tend to build decks with the philosophy that I'll include at least one answer to any situation I am able to in the colours I am in, even if it's just a utility land. That way, I never feel like I'm in a situation where my deck was literally powerless, its just that sometimes I don't draw the answers I need. When I lose, I want to be in the position where I know that if I had a DT in my hand I could have done something to help. As long as there was a chance I could have stopped it, I'll happily take my beats. Sometimes you have all the answers, and sometimes none. The only way to guarantee you can't answer a problem is to not put the answer in your deck in the first place. Everything else is just part of the game.
That's how I see it at least.
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And to help you out ApothecaryGeist, I started by using grave-hate that can incidentally draw you a card. Stuff like Ground Seal (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ground+Seal), Nihil Spellbomb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nihil+Spellbomb), Relic of Progenitus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Relic+of+Progenitus), and Soul-Guide Lantern (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Soul-Guide+Lantern). That way if there really is not deck that abuses their grave, you can still get something out of it. Another really good card is Containment Priest (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Containment+Priest). She stops not just grave-hate, but many other things like Ilharg, the Raze-Boar (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ilharg%2C+the+Raze-Boar) and Atla Palani, Nest Tender (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Atla+Palani%2C+Nest+Tender).
One of my favorite multipurpose gravehate cards is Blessed Respite (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blessed+Respite). Doesn't help on the draw angle, but it can get rid of someone's graveyard, sort of save your own from Bojuka Bog (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bojuka+Bog) and the like as it's easier to pull things back out of the deck than it is from exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile), or just stop your face from getting smashed in.
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I do like the ability to snipe single cards from peoples graveyards at instant speed when they try to target them (i.e. scavenging ooze (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scavenging+Ooze)). I've found that my bojuka bog (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Bojuka+Bog) never hits a relevant player's graveyard in a timely fashion. I can't tell you how many times I've just had it in a good opening hand and turn one bogged myself. I mean, I'm not going to stop running it, because after all, it's Bog, and someone's always playing Muldrotha at some point. But, honestly, I rarely even remember to design a scavenger grounds (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Scavenger+Grounds) into my deck. I really only include hate if it's synergistic; although, that's my own fault. I don't like to plan for contingencies. I just want to play splashy stuff.
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I’m not a big fan of graveyard hate but then again I run a lot of graveyard decks so I’m a little biased.
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I don't like to plan for contingencies. I just want to play splashy stuff.
This is me. In my brews, I often find it hard to cut slots down for draw and ramp with all the synergistic cards that I find, let alone grave hate. Plus, I hate the feeling when I'm playing a graveyard deck and someone Bogs me. So why would I want to give the Muldrotha player that same feeling?
I think this is why I win so sparsely. I throw out cool stuff, do some shenanigans (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Shenanigans), but lack interaction. So my opponent removes the card that my plan hinges on, or wipes my board with a Blasphemous Act (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blasphemous+Act), and I didn't have a Counterspell (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Counterspell) to stop them. I've started running counterspells like Rebuff the Wicked (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rebuff+the+Wicked) and Negate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Negate) for purely defensive purposes, but I haven't started sacrificing slots for grave hate yet. Perhaps in the future?
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I have been seeing the same thing in my play group as well. However, you run into the issue that you may include these cards and it be seen as targeting a specific person in you group who may play this strat. A safe bet is to use grave-hate lands because they will be useful outside of just sayng someone can't target graveyard or exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile) a graveyard and will be seen less as targeting and just utility.
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The way I see it every color has ways to mess with the graveyard so why not include a piece that can stop that (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Stop+That). I really like that new 3 CMC rock from crimson vow best case scenario you have grave hate best case you never have to use it and you overpaid for one mana rock.
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I really like that new 3 CMC rock from crimson vow best case scenario you have grave hate best case you never have to use it and you overpaid for one mana rock.
Honored Heirloom (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Honored+Heirloom).
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If you are playing black, I would strongly suggest trying Dauthi Voidwalker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dauthi+Voidwalker).
This card accidentally hoses graveyard strategies, but you can play it simply for the value that it will naturally provide during a game. Most of the time, you'll just randomly get a free thing, and sometimes it will be a huge haymaker.
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If you are playing black, I would strongly suggest trying Dauthi Voidwalker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dauthi+Voidwalker).
This card accidentally hoses graveyard strategies, but you can play it simply for the value that it will naturally provide during a game. Most of the time, you'll just randomly get a free thing, and sometimes it will be a huge haymaker.
Draugr Necromancer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Draugr+Necromancer) and Gisa, Glorious Resurrector (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gisa%2C+Glorious+Resurrector) work pretty well for that too. Not quite as oppressive as the Voidwalker due to not completely locking down the graveyard, but then that also means they're not quite so likely to draw attention.
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If you are playing black, I would strongly suggest trying Dauthi Voidwalker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dauthi+Voidwalker).
This card accidentally hoses graveyard strategies, but you can play it simply for the value that it will naturally provide during a game. Most of the time, you'll just randomly get a free thing, and sometimes it will be a huge haymaker.
Draugr Necromancer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Draugr+Necromancer) and Gisa, Glorious Resurrector (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gisa%2C+Glorious+Resurrector) work pretty well for that too. Not quite as oppressive as the Voidwalker due to not completely locking down the graveyard, but then that also means they're not quite so likely to draw attention.
Yeah, it's true that the Voidwalker can get you targeted sometimes!
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I almost never run graveyard hate, as my playgroup never used to run much in the way of recursion/reanimator tactics. That is changing slowly, however, and I think we will all start putting a few pieces of hate in the decks we build from now on. As we've got better at cards (we're all pretty bad, haha), we are learning how to interact more and that has changed things, as it will always do, I imagine. At the moment, our focus seems to be on running more exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile) effects as one of our group has started playing indestructible things ... non-stop. I personally hope they will be slow on picking up on graveyard hate, however, as I'm the one in the group that plays the most out of my graveyard :)
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I found a list somewhere of incidental graveyard hate. I don't think that this one (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/list-of-graveyard-hate-for-edh/) is the one I'm thinking of, but does also emphasise that.
Callous Bloodmage (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Callous+Bloodmage) is probably my go-to. Soul-Guide Lantern (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Soul-Guide+Lantern) is pretty low-cost too, but I prefer it (and Nihil Spellbomb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nihil+Spellbomb)) in places where I can recur it (Salvaging Station (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Salvaging+Station) usually, or Lurrus, etc). Shred Memory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Shred+Memory) also ought to fit in a lot of places. 3-mana transmute kind of wants a good range of targets and is never amazing but often plenty viable. Cling to Dust (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cling+to+Dust) is pretty solid too (kinda like a Cremate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cremate) that can turn into actual card advantage - though creatures are usually the things you'll want to hit, admittedly).
I'm not so keen on the symmetric stuff; I rarely face a deck with no graveyard recursion, but I also rarely play one. Sure, it's like a board wipe, you use it when it's less bad for you - but being that it's also a lot more niche, it's a tougher sell.
I did actually build a deck who's whole idea was graveyard hate, just for kicks. You can weaponise that with cards like Web of Inertia (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Web+of+Inertia) and Mist of Stagnation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mist+of+Stagnation). Kinda turned into a stax deck, though...