Messages

1

Commander Discussion / Re: Taking Sol Ring out of my commander decks - a reasoning.

« on: April 07, 2024, 07:06:03 pm »

Amjisan,

The poor shuffling and deviation go hand in hand but yes deviation also happens another way I have previously mentioned. Granted it wouldn't change the 25% outcome to be noticeable it just does. To get the 25% out come all 4 players have to play X amount of lands between them. Remember there is a chance to see the turn 1 sol ring and you need lands for this to happen. I don't know about you but I've known players who play with the incorrect amount of lands and mostly not enough.

The shuffling aspect is yes we can think about it especially in cards. Shuffling randomizes any deck and creates variance. So at the bottom we have a 52 card deck of playing cards that "Riffle seven times and you’ll have a sufficiently random ordering of cards, an ordering that has likely never existed before. In other words, it’s unlikely you’ll ever shuffle two decks the same.". But magic players actually don't riffle shuffle because of course we don't like destroying our cards especially if they aren't sleeved. So this is normally done with some type of overhand shuffle. Now lets bring this 1st into the 60 card format and sticking with the 7 times to shuffle to make it random. To off set some of this randomness we like to put 4 of a card into the deck. We now go up to 100 cards and the 7 times goes up higher. Where that number is I admittingly don't know. I do know that shuffling does play an important part of randomization. I do know magic players like to have a much control over such randomization because of the variance it comes with. With the mulligan rule changes that have happened proved that theory.

Yeah I am understating sol ring while everyone else is over stating it, It is so easy to constantly use an echo chamber stating that a turn 1 sol ring iis indeed impactful. Yes it can be impactful ss it consistently impactful? No because most everyone can remember a game where it was but not a single one of use will remember the games where it wasn't. So much easier to constantly point at the impactfulness then to look at it as a whole. So just echo what everyone else keeps echoing of sol ring impact. This also comes from my own personal experience as well. I normally play EDH 3 days a week but not always. I play at my local LGS on Thursday from 6-10, my Friday night play group from 5:30-10:30 and again on Saturday from 1-6. I've been doing this well over 2 years now and avg from 9 games to 12 or more depending on what decks we are running. Are there games in all those I've played that sol ring was impactful? Yes because 1 in particular I did myself which was a turn 1 sol ring into smothering tithe, and then into anointed procession. That was only 1 time out of who knows how many games I have played. I can recall more games though were there was a turn 1 sol ring has been played and turned into almost nothing. I've seen way to many more impactful things then a turn 1 sol ring.
Now I also know people over stat it because of those lurking in the shadows and a belligerent statement about my intelligence.I'll expect non the less on this part.

I am so confused. Do you not understand how much more 15 mana is over 10 mana? The discrepancy grows the further the game progresses! How is that not super lopsided? Let me take a wild guess.. 25.. nope that isn't it... 67.. nope that isn't correct either.... 2 nope that isn't correct either.. Screw it and I will guess 5 for final answer.  But then again you didn't answer my question which is ok. It'll be a yes or no because aren't you ahead in mana in either scenario? Now as the game progresses does it not occur to you that a player or the other players are also ramping? Or is ramping mad progressively only for sol-ring and not the other multitudes of cards that supplant ramp?

Now on that you guys can respond, the lurkers can lurk(got to love the negative drops from them) After this post I am done and moving on away from the boogy man. So go ahead and fire away

2

Commander Discussion / Re: Taking Sol Ring out of my commander decks - a reasoning.

« on: April 04, 2024, 10:37:26 pm »

As you said you "seeing" a turn 1 sol ring doesn't make it also degenerate, ruin your games, and archenemy. 

As for the rest lets start that again with seeing a turn 1 sol ring. You have 4 players who have to have X amount of lands for this to happen to equate to %Y which is seeing a turn 1 sol ring. These 4 players can deviate from X for whatever reason which would then change the % of Y. Call the shuffling aspect dubious all you want but shuffling has to happen even at the start of the game. So shuffling correctly is keeping it random. Incorrectly defeats this purpose and then %y outcome would then become less random. I've played a lot of games to along with plethora other card games and there are people who can't shuffle. It isn't a life skill that is needed but can be learned in a matter of time. I've even seen people who still can't riffle shuffle a regular 52 card deck of playing cards after being taught. Shuffling 100 sleeved magic cards isn't easy. One also has to shuffle a correct number of times for it to become random as well. So again yes someone may know to shuffle but not everyone knows the correct number of times either.

You don't see anything but it is more potent not "much" more potent.

How are those 2 scenarios related? I'll first answer the question with a question. It'll be a yes or no because aren't you ahead in mana in either scenario? Now to answer it without the question. Both scenarios put you ahead in mana and while I agree one puts you ahead further but non the less both put you ahead in mana.

On that, enjoy the boogy man.

3

Commander Discussion / Re: Taking Sol Ring out of my commander decks - a reasoning.

« on: April 04, 2024, 12:33:43 pm »

So wait, your argument is that we’ll see Sol Ring less than we expect… because people don’t shuffle properly? 

So you've never seen anybody struggle to shuffle cards before especially 100 or more cards? Now add sleeves to those 100 cards and it becomes even more of a struggle.

4

Commander Discussion / Re: Taking Sol Ring out of my commander decks - a reasoning.

« on: April 04, 2024, 12:29:09 pm »

The calculations are just fine if there wasn't human involvement around. 4 players mulligan 3 times equals a 25% of a turn 1 sol ring. That's only if all 4 players/humans stick to said calculations which to keep it simple include lands and shuffling (each mulligan does this). Any player/human can derive from said land count because of a few factors. Some of those reasons include the avg mana curve of the deck, deck building skills, and just out right refusal to actually have the right amount of lands. Now brings me to mulligan which means shuffling. I don't know about you but there are some people who just can't shuffle or have hard time shuffling or just aren't shuffling correctly (which this includes those cheating). Correct shuffling requires it to be random and if it isn't random then that throws off said calculations.

Yet since such a scenario is very unlikely to happen because of other reasonings such as having a better starting hand before mulligan. Again makes sol ring a boggy man.

5

Commander Discussion / Re: Taking Sol Ring out of my commander decks - a reasoning.

« on: April 03, 2024, 04:54:07 pm »

Do you understand how probabilities work? How the math of probabilities is entirely about predicting "if" an event will happen?

You do understand how human variables work? How the math of probabilities especially in this "if" event that doesn't include human variables? That the way one does or doesn't shuffle correctly can change such variables?? Never mind the emotional aspect of it all. These are 4 humans/people deciding to mulligan and shuffle down to 5 cards each not 5 robots. Ignoring the human variables once again doesn't make the "if" statement correct.

6

Commander Discussion / Re: Taking Sol Ring out of my commander decks - a reasoning.

« on: April 03, 2024, 02:03:58 pm »

Whether something reminds you of a saying or not doesn’t make it valid or invalid. The point is that t1 Sol Rings show up more than one might expect considering it’s just 1 card in 100.

A t1 Sol Ring isn’t always the be all and end all. However, like all fast mana, it enables stuff that only other fast mana enables, like a t2 Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe or Grand Arbiter Augustin IV. It’s not so much a boogeyman as just a very powerful thing to do. This is simple fact; no one card will entirely warp the game alone, but it doesn’t take a genius to look at Sol Ring, look at the next-best mana rock, and realise that being twice as effective for half the price makes this rather more powerful.

In cEDH we kind of expect this. However in games where people are literally banning fast mana to avoid this, it’s pretty strange to me then to allow Sol Ring still to happen.

Actually it does make it invalid when I just proved it. Facts are facts when someone is trying to use an "if" case scenario. While there is a probability of something happening doesn't make it so. A turn 1 sol ring also shows up less then one might expect. The instinct is "always" expect a turn 1 sol to be a powerful thing to do when in actuality it isn't "always" fact. Same thing could be said that Someone playes farseek on turn 2 while I just play a land and pass. Now that person is up 1 land and has more mana then I do come turn 3. That could be considered a powerful play because now I am behind on mana. So now I could use the same "of" scenario where we all muligined down to 5 cards and I kept a 2 land hand while that opponent has 3 lands and a farseek means "if" that happens it becomes a powerful play. Never mind it could be a fact that I am playing 34-35 lands, 2 mana accelerators with an avg cmc of 3.25 excluding the commander which is a 3 color commanders that cost 5 to play. Or I am playing just with basic lands with a 2 color commanders and my 1st opening hand indeed had 3 lands but they were of the same color. Or that I am not that great yet in shuffling 100 cards so I don't randomize the deck cause of my shuffling to have a decent opening hand. I do agree with the what "if" this happens, so yes it can happen but not as often as we'd like to think.

7

Commander Discussion / Re: Taking Sol Ring out of my commander decks - a reasoning.

« on: April 03, 2024, 12:40:44 pm »

If everyone plays Sol Ring and mulligans up to 3 times there's a 26% chance you see a T1 Sol Ring. If the decks at the table are otherwise void of fast mana it creates a very lopsided start / game.

That means about one quarter of all your games are "ruined" by Sol Ring if you don't like playing archenemy chosen at random.

Math nerdout moment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/120jvvk/to_sol_ring_or_not_to_sol_ring_variance_and/

I for one don't like that which means I'm taking Sol Ring out unless there's a good reason to include it. I think all my paper decks either have extra synergies, enable combos, or have other fast mana. (Which means I do play Sol Ring...)

This point is invalid because it reminds me of an old saying I used to use "if" the queen of England had balls then she would be king. Then "if" everyone mulligans 3 times there is definitely something wrong all 4 players. I would be asking questions such as "Did you build your deck right' or "How many lands are in your deck", "are you shuffling correctly" and so forth. Even at my casual play groups if you are mulliganing at least 3 times we do ask questions. We actually do want to start a game. So "if" is also highly unlikely to happen. But let's say it does happen and again Player A doesn't quite have the shuffling capabilities to shuffle his/her deck just yet. Yet while having a 25% won't guarantee to put someone ahead. For all we know they also have 0 or 1 land in hand with that sol ring hence the game wouldn't come close to being lopsided cause of sol ring. They could also have 4 lands in hand along with that sol ring (which again all that mana with nothing to do with it). Yet now with your scenario those other 75% of those games mean they won't have a sol ring with the possiblity of mulligan again. Also that means there could be 5,10,20 games straight where your "if" scenario is applied and sol ring doesn't show up in any of those games. Then again there could be 5,10,20 games straight where it does show up. A turn 1 sol ring has just become the boogy man of magic that's all.

8

Commander Discussion / Re: Taking Sol Ring out of my commander decks - a reasoning.

« on: April 03, 2024, 12:12:05 pm »

1st what are degenerate things??? Without a clear concise definition because all the groups I play in do something degenerate in one way or another. But since this is about sol ring then nah that isn't close to degenerate at all. So yeah focus on me when I drop a sol ring on turn 1 while I focus back on you which then player 2 and 3 will win because of our poor threat assessment. I prefer to see what happens in subsequent turns after you play the sol ring. Because instantly thinking someone's deck is a threat because of a turn 1 sol ring is definitely the wrong mind set. There have been games excluding sol ring where someone has plethora of mana with nothing to do with it. I've also seen the opposite of someone playing multiple turns of land, go but that doesn't mean they aren't or can't be a threat with other times they just aren't doing anything on such turns. I tend to put more focus on how optimized/synergistic your deck is then worry about your turn 1 sol ring.

9

Commander Discussion / Re: What do you think of "Baldur’s Gate Wilderness"?

« on: March 08, 2024, 03:09:47 pm »

I am with Morgantor on this with the final rooms can end games or come close to ending them. Ansur's Sanctum I think would be the most brutal of them all especially with how easy it is to have top deck manipulation. Plus it has 2 different ways to end in the Sanctum compared the other 2. Circus of the last day or Undercity Ruins hits the Sanctum while Circus only hits Steel Watch Foundry and Undercity Ruins only hits Temple of Bhaal.

10

General Magic / Re: Lithoform Engine makes copy tokens right?

« on: February 09, 2024, 09:11:03 pm »

Yes Lithoform Engine would copy any triggered or activated ability. Just of course you have to pay the 2 to copy the ability.

11

Deck Reviews / Re: [pioneer] Orzhov curses? - Opinons/feedback needed :)

« on: February 07, 2024, 05:08:03 pm »

As much as I like overwhelming splendor I would at least cut one of those. With no ramp I wouldn't try to bother with them to much. I personally would at least put in 1 or 2 Hallowed Haunting which would synergize with Katilda. And/or even run an Ondu Spirit Dancer. Hopefully these suggestions are ideal because like you I only play EDH so I don't know what cards are good for Pioneer but those are a start.

12

Commander Discussion / Re: Things you never thought you would get to say

« on: February 07, 2024, 03:28:15 pm »

I don't say this to often but I will show my opponent a card in my hand and say "This card could have stopped you" which it could have and then also say "I wanted your deck to do it's thing so that's why I didn't".

I say this one all the time "Screw that random bs of dice rolling to see who you attack, just hit me because I don't care".

13

Commander Discussion / Re: Your Go-To Lands

« on: February 07, 2024, 03:20:43 pm »

In the midst of going through my collection again!! for the 3rd time evaluating the price of my cards. The obvious go to lands for budget of course are Command Tower and Exotic Orchard. I also noticed I have quite a few Reveal lands which are cheap. However I try not to bring in any lands that come in tapped because I do agree having instant access to mana immediately is important. With that said though I do like using bounce lands that agree come in tapped but again I like using budget stuff.

14

Commander Discussion / Re: Banlist Justifications

« on: February 07, 2024, 03:13:33 pm »

Here is the issue if Wotc did indeed start including cards like Jeweled Lotus, Mana Crypt, Dockside Extortionist in pre-cons. Wotc would then increase the price of pre-cons which they all ready have done and then the price point entry to get into commander would turn some of the players off from the game as well. Then again there are people with a range of budgets of what they can or can't afford.

15

Commander Discussion / Re: I think March of the Canonized getting used wrong....right?

« on: February 07, 2024, 03:01:06 pm »

From a Mardu point of view it isn't that good of a card cause of the clause with devotion. However using it for the X aspect of it then yes it becomes pretty good. Trying to slam it on the table where X is 0 you are still going to need 2 white mana and then need 6-7 black/white pips on board for it to be usefull. This is where it would do nothing for a few turns, all the while your opponents could be churning out value. Remember the tokens won't count towards the devotion for the have no pips. With my aggressive style I personally wouldn't want to be waiting around to make a 4/3 flying token. I do try to use every aspect of a card but I would just not care if I got the 4/3 body and just aim at making X.