Combo and Rules Question

[skeri]

I'm wondering about ways to use the rules and card effects together to my advantage so I'm trying to figure out what works. I'm currently playing/building a standard deck that utilizes madness and discard features as well as several legendary creatures. So here is the situation I'm wondering about:

Suppose I have one legendary creature out on the battlefield and another copy of it in my hand, such as Drana, Liberator of Malakir, and I also have Indulgent Aristocrat on the battlefield as well as Olivia, Mobilized for War. Could I play the second Drana in my hand, discard a card to trigger Olivia's ability to give it haste and put +1+1 counter on it, attack with all cards activating Drana's ability to give +1+1 to all attacking creatures, and then sacrifice the first Drana to Indulgent Aristocrat for additional counters since it would have to leave the battlefield anyway?

It would be an ideal situation, but if it came up could I legally do it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the legendary creature rule resolves after combat yes? Since I'm playing with madness I could always just discard any additional legendary creatures I have in my hand if they are already on the battlefield so they wouldn't be wasted or dead in hand, but it would be cooler to use their abilities or sacrifice them for counters if opportunity presents itself.

Advice with that is much appreciated!

[Frimmel]

No. The "two legends" is a state-based effect. It is not a sacrifice. You play the "new" legend, you may then do anything you would do in response to a spell being played. The new legend resolves. Enter the battlefield effects trigger, resolve, and one of the legends is put into the graveyard.

If you are in first main phase and casting a legend all of that resolves before combat.

Creatures need to have haste prior to declaring attackers.

Once attackers are declared bringing in a "new" Drana at instant speed via giving her madness with Falkenrath Gorger and discarding her to Ravenous Bloodseeker will not allow you to declare the "new" Drana as an attacker. It is past time for that.

[G. Moto]

    But as far as the indulgent aristocrat combo there it seems like a good way to save and recycle creatures in your deck. How has the vamps been working for you lately? Have they been as fast and aggressive as you wanted them to be?

[skeri]

So basically, no, I cannot attack with them at the same time. I don't see, though, how I can't sacrifice the old one or activate haste on a new one that I've just cast at the beginning of my turn before combat. I would be bringing in a new Drana at the beginning of a turn where there was already one Drana established on the battlefield. Couldn't I just use Indulgent Aristocrat's ability to pay the mana cost and sacrifice the old Drana in response to the new one being played? The new one would then gain the +1+1 counters from the Indulgent Aristocrat sacrifice and if I discarded a card from my hand I could give it another +1+1 and haste from Olivia. Board state would have changed and the state-based effect would no longer be in effect. Then I could still attack with the new Drana since all of this would happen during the first main phase.

Of course I could always sacrifice the first Drana sometime before I play the new one and avoid all of that entirely.

I didn't say anything about playing a new legendary at instant speed or trying to activate haste post declaration as an attacker, I know that's not legal.

@G. Moto they are doing pretty well. I still don't win a whole lot, but I'm slowly purchasing and improving the deck so I haven't expected quick results. They seem to catch people off guard. Recycling cards is what I'm after, I'm trying to make sure that my discards aren't wasted efforts.

[Frimmel]

If you play a new Drana you can sac. one in play for the ability on Indulgent Aristocrat. But the new one would not get the counters because the new one hasn't resolved yet. You are using the Aristocrat's ability in response to the new Drana being played.

The "legend rule" does not use the stack. So once both Drana are in play it is then too late to sac. one to pay for the ability on Aristocrat. One goes to the graveyard.

Once the new one enters the battlefield you are free to resolve the trigger on Olivia granting the new one a counter and haste.

I'm just trying to make sure you understand the difference between "state-based" and "triggered." Triggers can have things played in response to them while things like the "legend rule" which are state-based cannot.

[skeri]

Ah thank you that cleared it up much more. I was assuming that it was on the stack. That made much more sense thank you! Triggers I understand, it was the mechanics of the state-based legendary rule that I was mistaken on. 

[G. Moto]

  As far as deck speed goes, you could always side board in Creeping dread. This way you will have your discard outlet and also be dealing good doses of damage every time. I say side board because you never know who's playing a madness themed deck nowadays. But it's an option.

[skeri]

I have two copies of it already, I'll throw it in my sideboard. Thanks for that suggestion, I had forgotten I even had it.

[Mostlynotgay]

Generally unrelat d, but you can use the legend rule to do some hilarious things. I had an opponent once, and I'm still mad I didn't see this coming, cast Kokusho, the Evening Star when there were 4 Renegade Doppelganger on the board. Hilarious loss.

[EBWonder]

I'm wondering about ways to use the rules and card effects together to my advantage so I'm trying to figure out what works. I'm currently playing/building a standard deck that utilizes madness and discard features as well as several legendary creatures. So here is the situation I'm wondering about:

Suppose I have one legendary creature out on the battlefield and another copy of it in my hand, such as Drana, Liberator of Malakir, and I also have Indulgent Aristocrat on the battlefield as well as Olivia, Mobilized for War. Could I play the second Drana in my hand, discard a card to trigger Olivia's ability to give it haste and put +1+1 counter on it, attack with all cards activating Drana's ability to give +1+1 to all attacking creatures, and then sacrifice the first Drana to Indulgent Aristocrat for additional counters since it would have to leave the battlefield anyway?

It would be an ideal situation, but if it came up could I legally do it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the legendary creature rule resolves after combat yes? Since I'm playing with madness I could always just discard any additional legendary creatures I have in my hand if they are already on the battlefield so they wouldn't be wasted or dead in hand, but it would be cooler to use their abilities or sacrifice them for counters if opportunity presents itself.

Advice with that is much appreciated!

you could sac the first drana and then cast the new one using olivia's trigger (assuming you had enough cards in hand). the legendary rule makes the removal happen immediately.

[skeri]

[/quote]
you could sac the first drana and then cast the new one using olivia's trigger (assuming you had enough cards in hand). the legendary rule makes the removal happen immediately.
[/quote]

Thank you that's what I have been doing! I have also been playing legendary cards early in the game to lure my opponent into destroying them and then either sacrificing them to Indulgent Aristocrat or just replaying them when I can put counters on them. It's been working quite well and keeping the aggro pressure on my opponent.

[G. Moto]

   @Skeri, and any other players on here, have any of you noticed a higher use in Control decks over the last few months or is it just me? I know there's sort of a power triangle where: [Control] > [Mid-ranged] > [Aggro] > [Control]. I went to my last FNM and I noticed these types of decks:
W/B Token Sacrifice
W/B Life Gain/Loss
B/R Vampires (the only aggro I saw)
G/W Renown Creatures
Esper (U//W/B) Dragons
Grixis (B/U/R) control
and Lastly I myself played Esper (U/W/B) Spirits. I know this is just MY local area but is it just me or are you guys (and gals) not seeing enough beat-down decks in your tournaments? 

 

[skeri]

@G. Moto yes! I assumed it was because the Shadows Over Innistrad Pro Tour in April. The top eight deck builds from that event have since become very popular. The decks that you listed are very much what the tier one decks are looking like now, except the R/B Vampires aggro was not effective in the pro tour and has only recently been getting attention.

Black removal seems to be the staple in the control decks with cards like Languish and Grasp of Darkness at the forefront. I've seen lots of Dark Petition, Transgress the Mind, Read the Bones, and Ultimate Price as well.

A lot of small monsters it seems. Not much aggro or super powerful creatures, mostly good effects and supportive spells. I think that the B/R vampire decks will start to see more attention as an aggro option in Standard (and I'm not just saying that because I'm playing one  )

[skeri]

  As far as deck speed goes, you could always side board in Creeping dread. This way you will have your discard outlet and also be dealing good doses of damage every time. I say side board because you never know who's playing a madness themed deck nowadays. But it's an option.

So I tried creeping dread as a replacement for call the bloodline in my deck just to see if I would like it. I played several games with it out on the board and only managed to draw the same card type as my opponent a handful of times. It was also a bit unfortunate for me that I had to discard every upkeep, there were times that I didn't have mana open to cast madness cards or just had to discard a good card. HOWEVER...I threw it in my zombie deck. Perfection. It was awesome for building up my graveyard so I could go summon diregraf colossus and have many many counters on him.

[G. Moto]

    And that's why I'm building  U/B Zombie deck with that card and Sanitarium skeleton in the deck. Personally I like decks but I'm not sure what I should play for my next FNM:
   U/B Zombies
   R/B/G Horrors
   B/U/R Elementals and devils
   R/W/B Cultists (I call it "Bad Religion")
   U/B Mental Drain (Life gain and control using vamps)
   B/U/G mid-ranged and big creatures (calling it "Nephalia Nights")
   U/R Elemental mid-ranged and burn (Calling it "Eye of the storm").