[Standard] Blue-Black Zombies

[Occultist]

I'm really trying to make this deck somewhat competitive, but the tribal investment limits options severely.
Do you have any suggestions, besides dropping the tribal or going 3-color, to make it work more efficiently?

Walker Edict

[G. Moto]

   I was also considering playing U/B Zombies at my local spot. Zombies actually have a lot of ways to play if you think about it:

1) Zombie Tokens: Playing cards such as shamble back are great ways to do removal on your opponent's graveyard. And with your token you can use it to trigger compelling deterrence.

2) Mill engine: Use creatures such as crow of dark tidings and rottenheart ghoul to fill up your own graveyard. You can then use this as a setup for bringing out geralf's masterpiece or prized amalgam faster.

3) Graveyard shenanigans: Macabre waltz really should be this deck's best friend. You can use it to recover dead zombies and drop cards such as gisa's bidding to trigger cards like invasive surgery or pick the brain.

   Just these three methods are good ways to make your deck more competitive.

[Occultist]

It's just too slow for competitive standard. There are no cheap zombies that pack much of a punch and recursion is just too bloody expensive on both mana and/or cards from your hand...Your only option is to go wide, but your opponent uses just too many threats and disruptive stuff. The only decks U/B Zombies is good against, are the odd planeswalker only decks...

[G. Moto]

  I don't entirely agree with that buddy. Even B/R vamps are hitting hard and B/G delirium is a thing. Spirits in any variation of U/W/B can do great and werewolves are more dangerous than ever. There's no reason why zombies can't be as dangerous as most other decks. Speaking of zombies, check out my most recent post I put under the deck request section of the forum. It should be titled "Gifted Youth". These are decks that I'm currently able to make but haven't yet because I myself are contemplating as how to introduce them to a control oriented meta area. Maybe you can give me some ideas and they can inspire you some way.

[Occultist]

Gonna check it for sure...

Edit : I like your decks. The Gisa one looks more to my taste. Creeping dread is not a bad idea for Zombie recursion decks...Too bad there are hardly any Madness Zombies...

I also had this question for my deck : Do you thing using the Sibsig Icebreakers is better than using Catalog? I'm not sure which one to keep...

[robort]

There are plenty of zombies to use
Shamble Back help fuel westvale abbey
Rancid Rats, cheap blocker with deathtouch and skulk if you wish to attack
Opponents getting rid of your creatures to quick use this to that advantage Corpseweft
Fleshbag Marauder, hey you sacrifice and I sacrifice, we all sacrifice
Undead Servant would be interesting to run 4 of
Drunau Corpse Trawler Surprise again, adding deathtouch and fuel for abbey

Want more?

[G. Moto]

  And also @Occultist, i recommend keeping the catalog. This way if your opponent is playing madness then they don't get any benefits. When you play catalog then you can search through your own deck and get madness triggers or delirium triggers that way. Playing cards such as rottenheart ghoul can help you reach delirium, sanitarium skeleton will help with discard effects (i like using it with macabre waltz). Also think of playing zombies like Eldrazi, you gotta keep the pressure on your opponent by ALWAYS having something on the field. FORCE them to use their languish, grasp of darkness, ultimate price, ruinous path, to the slaughter, flaying tendrils on your tokens and not your important creatures. i mention these cards because these were threats I had to deal with consistently against the control decks in my area. Kill spells can be a nuisance but if you make it bad for your opponent to kill your creatures, for  example, having rottenheart ghoul with alms of the vein in hand will hit them good for 3 life loss. Try keeping that in mind, build the deck how you want to and don't be afraid to mix concepts to get the result you need.

[Occultist]

Yeah, I also thought that Catalog is better than Sibsig Icebreakers to set up Zombie self-recursion early for Stitchwing Skaab or Geralf's Masterpiece, because, unlike Sibsig Icebreakers, it doesn't leave you with a stripped hand that Epiphany at the Drownyard alone is unlikely to fill in a timely fashion. Catalog also makes it easier to live the dream with setting up Prized Amalgam s for the Stitchwing Skaab's or Geralf Masterpiece's ability to pay

I was thinking of dropping the 4x Sibsig Breakers for 4x Catalog and dropping 2x Epiphany at the drownyard (keep the rest 2x) and adding 2x Corpseweft, so that I can quickly generate fatties when they nuke my Relentless Dead s or I'm somehow running too low on cards in hand to active self recursion of other zombies. I also has better synergy with Risen Executioner. What do you think of those ideas?
Also, is it better to keep Stitchwing Skaab s over Ghoulsteed s? I think it is, because it makes From under the Floorboards Madness viable before it's too late and it's easier to hard cast from your hand early on. Evasion is also a good thing for a deck that has to impose constant early aggression...

Thank you for taking the time to work with me here

[Jabilac]

Reckless Scholar isn't a zombie but a free discard outlet that lets you draw a card. I feel madness cards shine best when you don't have to invest mana into getting a discard. I like Nantuko Husk or Fleshbag Marauder over Sibsig Icebreakers. Nantuko Husk is an unpredictable threat that can trade up or swing hard when needed and Fleshbag Marauder can be used to remove an un-targetable/indestructible threat. I would consider Shambling Goblin as a 1 drop zombie because he can trade up with an X/2, messes with combat math when he dies, and a cheap re-animate target for Relentless Dead. Maybe Sidisi, Undead Vizier as a tutor effect to find your Geralf's Masterpiece or Risen Executioner.

[Occultist]

I don't like Reckless Scholar in this deck, because there aren't that many Madness cards included and he's a fragile outlet for the few times that I will need it. It also works against Relentless Dead and Diregraf Colossus synergy, so no Reckless Scholar.
Nantuko Husk is good in theory, but he needs Evasion to really work and I don't have slots for Evasion in this deck at all. Besides, due to its reputation, EVERYBODY gets rid of Nantuko Husk, no matter what...It doesn't work that great in the current format, really, unless you build around it.
Fleshbag Marauder has shit synergy with Recursion. He needs a shit load of mana to continue dropping him WITH Relentless Dead around and besides, the format now is all about going wide (well, mostly) and they usually sac dorks over him...
Shambling Ghoul s have very little impact overall and are filler material only...

The Sidisi, Undead Vizier seems a good addition, but over what? Maybe trade her for 1x Geralf's Masterpiece? She's really nice if you're somewhat set up on the board by the time you cast her, but she's terrible when things are rough and you're losing tempo...I think this deck should be more straightforward in answers...

Edit : I dropped 2x Corpseweft and 2x Stitchwing Skaab to put in 4x Fleshbag Marauder s for testing...They're a more impactful even when you sac them to themselves...Recuring them costs a ton and leaves fewer creatures on your side - maybe none, but everyone advises in favor of them for this kind of deck...

[Jabilac]

I think removing a Geralf's Masterpiece in place of a Sidisi, Undead Vizier makes the most sense and won't change your draws too much. The worst she can be is a 4/6 wall with deathtouch at best she sets up your finish and pushes you over the edge.

Shambling Goblin doesn't change the game much I agree but he is a sac target for Fleshbag Marauder or Sidisi, Undead Vizier, he trades up with x/2's by applying his -1/-1 to that creature and a 1 mana re-animate target for Relentless Dead. Shambling Ghoul is too slow coming in tapped.

I don't know if Fleshbag Marauder should always be a main board option mainly because of the reasons you already mentioned but I look at him as a 3cmc "Each opponent sacrifices a creature" with the possibility of being a 3/1 creature.

[G. Moto]

   The reason why I don't like epiphany at the drownyard is because you're letting the opponent choose what you keep. I mean, even if most of your deck is gonna sit in the grave, you don't need him putting your westvale abbey AND your instant and sorcery spells in the grave at the same time (if that ever came up).  I would recommend replacing that with gisa's bidding, Liliana's indignation (since it mills and deals damage), and definitely adding some macabre waltz (cause what's a zombie deck without graveyard recursion).

     Also Ever after might want to be something you consider. It's a high drop but it gets TWO creatures on the field UNTAPPED. Then the card itself goes back into your deck. That is an investment and can set up your prized amalgam plays.  Stitched mangler is good for working power plays against the enemy. Also druanu corpse trawler would be good to have since you can give multiple zombies death touch at anytime. This will serve as a deterrent for when your opponent attacks you (give a 2/2 zombie you control death touch), Of if your diregraf colossus is getting blocked just give it death touch as well. Just some ideas that might help you out.

   

[Occultist]

Tried to make some more changes...it just gets heavier and Blue works like a splash...I've tried all versions and suggestions over this kind of deck. You can never include enough of them and the deck is just too dependent on 1-2 ideas to make its base work, leaving just too many gaps, besides being too slow for the kind of threats it throws. It's strictly kitchen table Magic for this deck - NOBODY plays it at FNM. Probably gonna drop it as a whole and try to build something totally different, at least until Eldritch Moon arrives...

[G. Moto]

  Tell you what, I'm going to work on building a U/B Zombie deck as well. I'm going to personally play a version of it myself the next time I go to an FNM Tournament and I'll show you that U/B Zombies is a deck to be feared. This I promise you.

[Dave274]

Hi there.

first of all, i'm not a experimented MTG player, i've been playing since last year, so keep that in mind before you consider what i'm going to say.

I posted a very similar deck some days ago, i brought that deck into a FNM and the main issue of my version (http://deck.tk/4EqA7Eus) was that the mechanic was terribly slow for working and very, VERY mana hungry, but, beside that, some things were really interesting to consider, like:

- You ALWAYS want Stichwing Skaab on your graveyard. 3-1 flying creature for 2 mana was OK, but bringing Amalgam back every single time was interesting.

- Nagging Thoughts and Sinister Concoction was a fine way to put zombies (Specially Amalgam and Stichwing Skaab) on my graveyard in my early stage. You don't want them on your hand forever and wait for Liliana's +2 was terribly slow. (Nagging with Liliana +2 was interesting also)

- The early i got Forgotten Creation on play, the better Diregraf Colossus became.

- In my online version i don't have her, but on FNM i tried Sidisi, Undead Vizier over Geralf's Masterpiece and she was just awesome against something really strong and frequent on my local meta and so hard to manage to my UB before her: Reality Smasher. And against RG Ramp, Vizier stops WorldBreaker, Reality Smasher and let you find on time your Infinite Obliteration for Ulamog.

- Nantuko and Relentless Dead worked awesome on my opponent's final step, by sacrificing Relentless on Nantuko's ability and returning him to my hand and any zombie to my battlefield with Amalgams together. (I played FNM with 2 nantuko and 2 Forgotten Creation).

I win just 1 game, Draw 1 and lose 2 (1-2 on the score), and the main thing to improve to the next FNM is to fill my graveyard quickly, and for that, i will try Sultai (i know you don't want to go 3 colors, but this changes seems to improve my main detected weakness, maybe they will make sense to you too), with this modifications:

- 4 Gather the pack over 4 Nagging thoughts. (i've been testing this and it rocks. Best scenarios are Diregraf Colossus 4/4 or 5/5 on turn 3 or Stichwing Skaab + 1 or 2 amalgams on battlefield on turn 3)
- 2 Forgotten Creation away for 2 Mindwrack Demon (yeah, is not a zombie, but helps you to fill your graveyard and is a real threat on your battlefield, mainly because it survives languish, kills Gideon, survives first Avacyn and with the new strategy, delirium is easy to get)
- I'll use 3 Lilianas instead of 4, and i will go with 1 Kiora. She does exactly what you need on this strategy and she is even able to untap your Stitchwings returned from your graveyard and make them cost only 1 mana.
- Take away Risen executioner and go with full playset of Stichwing Skaab.
- 2 Nantuko Husk over 2 Forgotten Creation.
- 2 Main Languish, or 1 main and 2 sideboard. (It seems it hurts you a lot, but the fact is that you have a really nice comeback strategy, and i wasn't able to fill my battlefield better than humans or CoCo's decks. I brought 1 on my SB on FNM and cleaning the field was easier to recover for my than my opponents).
- Take Sinister Concoction away and add a third Grasp of Darkness and 1 Evolutionary Leap (relentless dead with this? Yes, please!).

I'll post my new version soon, maybe it will help you and naturally, any advice would be nice in return

See you.