Just got back into magic, made a Token Deck need to Slim Down Please Help !

[nevervail]

I'm trying to put together a faster more "aggro" (as you guys call it I think?) deck of Green/White Selesnya theme. I'm really torn on all these cards and am having a hard time figuring out what to cut to get to 60 cards.  I've been having a lot of trouble with my friends Gruul deck, my creatures just get picked off by pit fights and burns (note I don't have a lot of these cards yet so this may tip the scales). My goal is to have an army out quickly and populate it as much as possible. Hopefully keep my opponent on his toes before I can get out an Akroma's Memorial or one of my high cost Creatures. Let me know if theres any cards that would be better to add too, thanks guys 

Link: http://deckstats.net/decks/1071/4598-revision-1-5-token-deck

[AeroSigma]

If you want to go aggro, cut some of your more expensive stuff.  So far, your curve is pretty low, but maybe drop 2 or three of your CMC >= 4 creatures (Garruk's Packleader, Thragtusk, Trostani, Armada Worm, Giant Adephage)  Ultimatley it's up to you, but I'd keep Armada over Adephage, since Armada gives you the token no matter what, and 1 Garruk and 1 Trostani are probably enough. 

Moonsilver Spear isn't a great match for this deck, it costs 8 to get it going, and your other enchantments would be better, and cheaper (i.e. Collective Blessing and Cathar's Crusade are where you should be putting that mana.)

Keep in mind that your goal is to overwhelm with numbers, not survive long enough to drop a bomb.  Consider ditching an Akroma's Memorial for another Growing Ranks (and just populate the crap out of your grove of the guardian tokens.)

Sundering Growth is a great removal spell if your opponents tend to have artifacts or enchantments that give you trouble.  Also consider Awakening Zone, and maybe a little more ramp to help you get to the heavy-hitters faster (good choice on the Arbor Elf though.)

Also, Wayfaring Temple is a good card on paper, but I've found it underwhelming in practice.  It's either too small, so I can't get it through for the populate, or end up chump blocking with it, or is big enough that I'd win the game even without it.  i.e., early game, it's not enough, and late game it's irrelevant.  There's a small time mid-game where it shines, but so far I've never really hit that zone, it's smaller than I thought.  Again, it will play differently in your deck and against your friends, but I've been disappointed with it.

Hope that helps!

[nevervail]

If you want to go aggro, cut some of your more expensive stuff.  So far, your curve is pretty low, but maybe drop 2 or three of your CMC >= 4 creatures (Garruk's Packleader, Thragtusk, Trostani, Armada Worm, Giant Adephage)  Ultimatley it's up to you, but I'd keep Armada over Adephage, since Armada gives you the token no matter what, and 1 Garruk and 1 Trostani are probably enough. 

Ahh okay, that makes sense! Wouldn't 2 Trostani be a necessity? I know shes legendary but she just seems too good not to have a higher chance of bringing out.

Moonsilver Spear isn't a great match for this deck, it costs 8 to get it going, and your other enchantments would be better, and cheaper (i.e. Collective Blessing and Cathar's Crusade are where you should be putting that mana.)

I've been thinking about that too, the reason I went for Moonsilver Spear is I really have no ways of dealing with flying units. I find I lose to flying (usually) or a ton of control spells or both. It's a gap I'm really having trouble filling. 1/1 Flying tokens just seem so underwhelming, I find populate is much much stronger when you're populating higher powered tokens (kind of obvious statement I guess lol). Entreat the Angels( a little pricey for my tastes though) seems amazing to take its place. Is there even an effective way to deal with flying units with a white/green deck???

Keep in mind that your goal is to overwhelm with numbers, not survive long enough to drop a bomb.  Consider ditching an Akroma's Memorial for another Growing Ranks (and just populate the crap out of your grove of the guardian tokens.)

Sundering Growth is a great removal spell if your opponents tend to have artifacts or enchantments that give you trouble.  Also consider Awakening Zone, and maybe a little more ramp to help you get to the heavy-hitters faster (good choice on the Arbor Elf though.)

Awesome idea I like it . Yeah I actually haven't gotten a Akroma's yet, it just seems like it'd be amazing. I've found Sundering Growth to be too situational cause there has to be an enchantment or artifact out for it to do anything. Although I'm sure against some decks its a must have for sure. Awakening Zone seems really cool, haven't seen that card until just now! Is it overkill to have 4 Arbors, 4 Abundant Growths, and also Awakening Zone though?? I guess I do have a fair amount of mana dumps. Is there a max number of ramp ups youre supposed to have or skys the limit??

Also, Wayfaring Temple is a good card on paper, but I've found it underwhelming in practice.  It's either too small, so I can't get it through for the populate, or end up chump blocking with it, or is big enough that I'd win the game even without it.  i.e., early game, it's not enough, and late game it's irrelevant.  There's a small time mid-game where it shines, but so far I've never really hit that zone, it's smaller than I thought.  Again, it will play differently in your deck and against your friends, but I've been disappointed with it.

Hope that helps!

Honestly I never realized it but you're so right here. Now that I think about it everytime I get out Wayfaring Temple its usually killed off or I win before it even populates lol. I keep thinking of it as an early or early mid game card where it usually is too weak to do anything. Precinct Captain seems decent I guess. Any ideas on what creature or token could fill this void?

Thanks very much for your insight. You've helped get me thinking about it differently !

[Crow, Rogue king]

i agree with pretty much everything that has been suggested so far, however sundering growth is really helpful to have and despite being situational is nice to have just in case of things such as pacifism, or illness in the ranks. in a token populate deck, illness in the ranks is your worst enemy. you almost need something to take care of that.

[nevervail]

Took out all those cards and added a Growing Ranks. Unfortunately now tho I'm starting to see there is just not enough token production. Given that I think sundering growth would gimp this deck because of that problem unless I took out more cards. In this rendition there are only 12 Token creators (including thragtusk) in the entire deck. Also there is no way to deal with flying except for Oblivion Ring and Selesnya Charm.  This is why I was thinking Moonsilver Spear would be so great although I agree its rather expensive. Any suggestions on dealing with flyers also more token production???

[AeroSigma]

Ya, 12 token generators is a bit low.  Consider looking at the mana curve of just the token generators, and make sure to fill in some gaps. 
You can use a line like:
//Token Generators
in deck stats to have custom sections.  I find this very useful, especially with sorceries that create creature tokens.

Take a look at Plummet and Bower Passage to directly deal with fliers, especially if you play against them often.  Keep in mind that a Giant Growth for {G} on a weenie 1/1 bird token will take out many other fliers, a Titanic Growth at {1}{G} on an Eyes in the Skies token will even trade for a Baneslayer Angel.  There can also be a lot of synergy with cards like Phantom General, which will make your weenies more aggresive. You can also give one of your fatty tokens flying, Pollenbright Wings would work well.

Also, Entreat the Angels is BOSS.  If you can get a copy, it's totally worth it.  It looks to be a big mana challenge, but learn to play it right.  Strongly consider mulling if it's in your opening hand*, and realize that there are very few** occasions when you will not cast it as a miracle as soon as you draw it.  It is almost ALWAYS worth it to dump all/most of your mana into a 4/4 flier FOR EACH mana you spend.

*unless it's a 4-of, but then you still probably won't be casting that copy from hand.
**The only time you'd hold back is if you need to cast something else this turn or you'll lose.

As to the quantities of ramp, the best way is to test it in your deck.  Play it, change it, play some more, etc. until you feel the balance is right.  Also, consider that Abundant Growth (while being my favorite green 1-drop) isn't really ramp, just color fixing and card advantage.  If your overall curve can handle it, swap a few rampant growths in.  I also usually prefer Borderland Ranger to Arbor Elf (since if the creature dies, you still have the extra land,) but in this deck, I'd keep the Arbor Elfs in order to keep the cost down.  But if, through testing, you find that the ramp allows you to run a higher curve while still being agressive, consider that swap as well.

[nevervail]

Wow man you are a boss  . I had no idea any of these cards were around haha! Awesome. Definitely did not notice that about Abundant Growth I was thinking it added an additional mana with its normal mana, and thinking the arbor elf could untap it haha...would be rather ridiculous I guess. Gift of Orzhova in gatecrash is pretty tempting too although maybe slightly off theme it would still work.  I will do some mulling over and show you guys the finished product. Thanks again for your help I'm super excited

[AeroSigma]

Ya, Gifts of Orzohva won't net you any tokens, but at half the cost it frees up mana to populate, and you could get it out a bit sooner.  And it will feel GREAT the first time you put lifelink on an 8/8 vigilance token (+16 life per round FTW!). You should probably go with it, especially if you have a copy or two.  Even though it's off-theme, it makes sense in your deck.  Like gforgregarious said in another thread, "stick to your theme, i.e. don't put control in an aggro build." But be willing to make concessions when there's synergy with your deck, and when the meta calls for it, being to exclusive can get you in trouble.

And I forget to address the Qty2 Trostani's you asked about earlier.  Ya, she's pretty boss, but she taps to populate.  If you want more, put in a Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage.  She's costs more to populate, but if you've got the mana (you will with the right ramping) she can populate twice per turn.  Or take out a Garruk's Packleader for another Trostani, (notice that Garruk's Packleader + Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage = Trostani) but remember that Trostani is Legendary so you can only have 1 out at a time (read: 3 or 4 is too many when there are other cards that can do the same thing.)

[nevervail]

Ya, Gifts of Orzohva won't net you any tokens, but at half the cost it frees up mana to populate, and you could get it out a bit sooner.  And it will feel GREAT the first time you put lifelink on an 8/8 vigilance token (+16 life per round FTW!). You should probably go with it, especially if you have a copy or two.  Even though it's off-theme, it makes sense in your deck.  Like gforgregarious said in another thread, "stick to your theme, i.e. don't put control in an aggro build." But be willing to make concessions when there's synergy with your deck, and when the meta calls for it, being to exclusive can get you in trouble.

Okay cool! I was thinkin' of that exact combo too hehe and for cheap some flying and lifelink it could even make some early tokens even a centaur pretty nasty. 

And I forget to address the Qty2 Trostani's you asked about earlier.  Ya, she's pretty boss, but she taps to populate.  If you want more, put in a Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage.  She's costs more to populate, but if you've got the mana (you will with the right ramping) she can populate twice per turn.  Or take out a Garruk's Packleader for another Trostani, (notice that Garruk's Packleader + Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage = Trostani) but remember that Trostani is Legendary so you can only have 1 out at a time (read: 3 or 4 is too many when there are other cards that can do the same thing.)

Okay good to note, it would be rather crappy to get 2 in one game...kind of a waste of draw. Garruk's I feel is an amazing card but only under the perfect conditions after a few games I straight up just took them both out =/. Here's my current rendition. http://deckstats.net/decks/1071/2610-centaurs-rr/en

[nevervail]

Too many Arbor Elves and Pilgrims maybe?

[Arctures]

I'm just getting back into the game myself, so if I'm way off the mark feel free to shoot me.

My first reaction is to replace the Abundant Growths with some Temple Gardens, then even out your land::spell ratio accordingly.  Chaining them with your Arbor Elves with them will easily straighten out whatever mana situation you may find yourself in, and better allow you to get out your Call of the Conclaves and Selesnya Charms much faster.  Maybe add a couple Sunpetal Groves as well if you're so inclined.  That alone would get you down to 60 cards, if you're still concerned about that.

I might also see to replacing the Collective Blessing with something quicker.  It's a nice boost for mid-late game, but to me it ultimately seems too bulky and unnecessary given the hoard of tokens you'll have likely accumulated by that time.  Those tokens alone at that point in the game, plus the Wayfaring Temples that they boost, should be enough to set you over the edge.  If anything, I think you might be better off with some Maybe even another Cathar's Crusade could help you out.  Gavony Township seems okay to this end, although I fear it'd eat up too much of your mana pool and you wouldn't get a great chance to use it early on while you're setting up.  I'd have to see it in action though to get a better sense of how it works.


I tentatively agree with AeroSigma about cutting a couple of your higher CMC beasts if you want to go for speed, maybe the Armada Wurm and Giant Adephage.  Maybe only have 1 Akroma's Memorial, since it's unlikely you'll ever have to depend on that being on the field as your main win condition.  Assuming you do make it to late-game, I would suggest a Craterfoot Behemoth as a final smash win condition.  I would ideally want to go with Overrun, but since it's not T2 anymore Craterfoot may have to do the trick.

As for other suggestions, something Garruk-related always does the trick for token-based decks.  I'm a personal fan of Primal Hunter, you may benefit from one or two as well.  Gifts of Orzhova could be a nice touch as well, but I'd rather leave those sort of ancillary/ornamental for after the rest of the deck is set.

[5p3c7re]

It looks pretty solid so far keep up the good work.

I might consider a few cloudshifts, since you play a couple of powerful "enters the battlefield effects" i.e. thragtusk and armada wurm. in conjunction with parallel lives can produce quite a few big tokens. Switching out a couple of seller of songbirds with centaur healers could give you some reproducible evasion (also through cloudshift...) Cloudshift is really an underrated card. It is almost like playing more "enters the battlefield bombs" than are actually in your deck...

Just a couple of ideas...