Ruling on multiple triggers of some ETB effects

[HowlingLotus]

Some friends recently got me back into the game and I've mostly been playing casual multiplayer games. Sometimes I try and look rulings up on my phone if I get stumped or get mixed answers.

One of the decks I have enjoyed playing (as Kaladesh and Revolt were the new sets when I started) is my Aetherborn/Servo deck. I just made some changes that includes running all three modules now and a couple Panharmonicon. I think I have most of the interactions down, but want clarification on a couple:

#1 Ironclad Revolutionary
Reading the rulings for this card I take it there is 0% chance it can trigger any of it's effects multiple times? While that is dissapointing if that's the case it still has synergy with the modules at least.

#2 Aetherborn Marauder
I understand that all counters are moved as one instance, but would triggering it's ETB be redundant in this case? Can it even trigger more than once? My understanding of the verbiage is that it takes the counters, but isn't generating new ones on its own perse. So when it ETB's it would first move X counters to itself and any additional triggers would simply fizzle? I still love the card either way.


Otherwise I think I have things down. I haven't played the deck yet since I made the alterations and don't want to slow the game down by bugging everyone while they're taking their turns.

[Lyonsbane]

Some friends recently got me back into the game and I've mostly been playing casual multiplayer games. Sometimes I try and look rulings up on my phone if I get stumped or get mixed answers.

One of the decks I have enjoyed playing (as Kaladesh and Revolt were the new sets when I started) is my Aetherborn/Servo deck. I just made some changes that includes running all three modules now and a couple Panharmonicon. I think I have most of the interactions down, but want clarification on a couple:

#1 Ironclad Revolutionary
Reading the rulings for this card I take it there is 0% chance it can trigger any of it's effects multiple times? While that is dissapointing if that's the case it still has synergy with the modules at least.

#2 Aetherborn Marauder
I understand that all counters are moved as one instance, but would triggering it's ETB be redundant in this case? Can it even trigger more than once? My understanding of the verbiage is that it takes the counters, but isn't generating new ones on its own perse. So when it ETB's it would first move X counters to itself and any additional triggers would simply fizzle? I still love the card either way.


Otherwise I think I have things down. I haven't played the deck yet since I made the alterations and don't want to slow the game down by bugging everyone while they're taking their turns.

Think of Panaharmonicon as a "when an effect triggers, resolve it, then restart the trigger again".
This means that you can choose new modes, payment (if allowed), and targets.

Using your cards as example:

Ironclad Revolutionary can allow you to sacrifice an artifact.
You can choose to or not to do it: after the effect resolves, you can decide again to sacrifice an artifact.
Again, you can choose to do or not do it.

Aetherborn Marauder allows you to move +1/+1 counters on him on ETB resolution.
This means that you can "drain" any of your +1/+1 counters from your permanents and give them to Marauder.
Then, after choosing if to do/not do it, you can do it again, which is basically useless if you got no permanents with +1/+1 counters on them (if they got "drained" after the effect resolution).
That said, you could always move counters partially (saying, draining a +1/+1 counter and leaving the target permanent with 3 +1/+1 counters on it) or move counters from a bunch of permanents you control (saying, moving all the counters from 2/4 permanents you control).
This allows you to move the counters in a two-step transiction.
Not that useful after all, but allowed by the rules.
You can't create +1/+1 counters from nothingness by targeting a permanent completely drained of its counters by the first istance of the effect with the second istance (ex: I move 3 +1/+1 counters from a permanent which has 3 +1/+1 counters on it, select it again with the second istance, move another 3 counters to Marauder), however.

[HowlingLotus]

*snip to save space*

Thank you for the reply and makes sense.

I kind of figured there wouldn't be a way to "cheat" out more counters. The text made it clear it takes them versus creating new ones, but I wanted to double check if the interaction would create some sort of doubling effect that wasn't obvious.

Would Panharmonicon exclusively "read" the part about sacrificing an artifact on Ironclad Revolutionary? I understand that it would let me sacrifice additional artifacts depending on how many Panharmonicon I have in play, but the part I was confused about was that some ruling sites say the counters and opponents losing life can't be triggered more than once? I suppose it might not be taking Panharmonicon into the equation?

[Jabilac]

The rulings on Ironclad Revolutionary are just telling you that you can't sacrifice more then one artifact for its ETB effect.  You can't decide, of your own free will and volition, to sacrifice 2 artifacts and have the effect happen twice.  If you have a Panharmonicon out then the trigger happens twice, so the game is giving you more chances to sacrifice artifacts.  You do have to sacrifice an artifact for each trigger if you want the effect.

For Aetherborn Marauder it might be beneficial to move counters twice if you had say a Winding Constrictor or Corpsejack Menace on the Battlefield.  Those cards augment how counters are added by replacing the original effect with a new effect.  If you had Winding Constrictor, Panharmonicon, Several creatures with +1/+1 counters, and you cast Aetherborn Marauder then it would be better to move counters for each trigger because Winding Constrictor would add an additional counter each time.

[HowlingLotus]

The rulings on Ironclad Revolutionary are just telling you that you can't sacrifice more then one artifact for its ETB effect.  You can't decide, of your own free will and volition, to sacrifice 2 artifacts and have the effect happen twice.  If you have a Panharmonicon out then the trigger happens twice, so the game is giving you more chances to sacrifice artifacts.  You do have to sacrifice an artifact for each trigger if you want the effect.

For Aetherborn Marauder it might be beneficial to move counters twice if you had say a Winding Constrictor or Corpsejack Menace on the Battlefield.  Those cards augment how counters are added by replacing the original effect with a new effect.  If you had Winding Constrictor, Panharmonicon, Several creatures with +1/+1 counters, and you cast Aetherborn Marauder then it would be better to move counters for each trigger because Winding Constrictor would add an additional counter each time.

Thank you for replying as well.

I'm actually working on a separate deck involving counters with Winding Constrictor and Corpsejack Menace. That's something to keep in mind if I can fit a Panharmonicon or two in that deck as I also plan on having some Aetherborn Marauder 's in that deck as well.

[CardAgain Sweater]

The rulings on Ironclad Revolutionary are just telling you that you can't sacrifice more then one artifact for its ETB effect.  You can't decide, of your own free will and volition, to sacrifice 2 artifacts and have the effect happen twice.  If you have a Panharmonicon out then the trigger happens twice, so the game is giving you more chances to sacrifice artifacts.  You do have to sacrifice an artifact for each trigger if you want the effect.

For Aetherborn Marauder it might be beneficial to move counters twice if you had say a Winding Constrictor or Corpsejack Menace on the Battlefield.  Those cards augment how counters are added by replacing the original effect with a new effect.  If you had Winding Constrictor, Panharmonicon, Several creatures with +1/+1 counters, and you cast Aetherborn Marauder then it would be better to move counters for each trigger because Winding Constrictor would add an additional counter each time.

Thank you for replying as well.

I'm actually working on a separate deck involving counters with Winding Constrictor and Corpsejack Menace. That's something to keep in mind if I can fit a Panharmonicon or two in that deck as I also plan on having some Aetherborn Marauder 's in that deck as well.

I fiddled around with a corpsejack and constrictor deck. Scrounging Bandir is great if you get two on the board at the same time, they can swap counters,  then move all but one counter for each bandir to aetherborn maurader. Or if you need a permanent to die that turn, move all the counters leaving a bandir at 0/0.  The panharmicon will benefit other creatures that enter with counters, but not sure how moving counters to aetherborn maurader twice is beneficial, with the exception of what was mentiined above with winding constrictor - if you move 2 counters, constrictor will give 3 (2+1) if you move 1 counter twice, constrictor gives 4 (1+1, 1+1).

[HowlingLotus]

The rulings on Ironclad Revolutionary are just telling you that you can't sacrifice more then one artifact for its ETB effect.  You can't decide, of your own free will and volition, to sacrifice 2 artifacts and have the effect happen twice.  If you have a Panharmonicon out then the trigger happens twice, so the game is giving you more chances to sacrifice artifacts.  You do have to sacrifice an artifact for each trigger if you want the effect.

For Aetherborn Marauder it might be beneficial to move counters twice if you had say a Winding Constrictor or Corpsejack Menace on the Battlefield.  Those cards augment how counters are added by replacing the original effect with a new effect.  If you had Winding Constrictor, Panharmonicon, Several creatures with +1/+1 counters, and you cast Aetherborn Marauder then it would be better to move counters for each trigger because Winding Constrictor would add an additional counter each time.

Thank you for replying as well.

I'm actually working on a separate deck involving counters with Winding Constrictor and Corpsejack Menace. That's something to keep in mind if I can fit a Panharmonicon or two in that deck as I also plan on having some Aetherborn Marauder 's in that deck as well.

I fiddled around with a corpsejack and constrictor deck. Scrounging Bandir is great if you get two on the board at the same time, they can swap counters,  then move all but one counter for each bandir to aetherborn maurader. Or if you need a permanent to die that turn, move all the counters leaving a bandir at 0/0.  The panharmicon will benefit other creatures that enter with counters, but not sure how moving counters to aetherborn maurader twice is beneficial, with the exception of what was mentiined above with winding constrictor - if you move 2 counters, constrictor will give 3 (2+1) if you move 1 counter twice, constrictor gives 4 (1+1, 1+1).

I'm debating on Scrounging Bandar as having a few of them on the field could create a loop of sorts, but I am favouring a few higher cost minions such as Forgotten Ancient. I've played a friends Elemental deck that includes one and it always ends up being a 15/15 to 20/20 before you know it without synergy (due to 4-7 players on average).

Moving the counters twice with the buff cards out does add extra counters in the long run. The effect, naturally, is better with more Winding Constrictor 's and Corpsejack Menace 's out.

[ladof]

That deck could be a good one for Varolz, the Scar-striped, too. Gives an option for graveyard shenanigans.

[HowlingLotus]

That deck could be a good one for Varolz, the Scar-striped, too. Gives an option for graveyard shenanigans.

I really want to run a few copies of that, but I'm still trying to cut down on the final list as I'm still quite a bit over 60. Due to having other creatures that give counters I can make Varolz tougher than it's 2/2 base stat line, but I was also considering Death's Presence (less enchantment removal in the group I play with). Due to the deck being used for multiplayer games I'm trying to fine tune for cards that benefit from graveyard, but also ones that look at ALL upkeeps and end steps 

[CardAgain Sweater]

That deck could be a good one for Varolz, the Scar-striped, too. Gives an option for graveyard shenanigans.

I really want to run a few copies of that, but I'm still trying to cut down on the final list as I'm still quite a bit over 60. Due to having other creatures that give counters I can make Varolz tougher than it's 2/2 base stat line, but I was also considering Death's Presence (less enchantment removal in the group I play with). Due to the deck being used for multiplayer games I'm trying to fine tune for cards that benefit from graveyard, but also ones that look at ALL upkeeps and end steps

Lumberknot and fairgrounds trumpeter make a good combo to feed off multiplayer endsteps. Lumberknot gets a counter whenever any creature dies, trumpeter checks every end step and adds a counter if any other permanent you control gets counters. I used it well in a six player game.