Obelisk Spider's triggered ability

[CardAgain Sweater]

Ran into a disagreement over card interaction last night.  Here's the situation:

Late game, opponent at 4 life,  I'm at 13. Opponent's board is a glyph keeper (counters the first spell or ability that targets it), no cards in hand and tapped out except for 2 white mana and has 2 sacred cats in graveyard - i assume at this point they'll be embalmed in 2nd main phase. I have 2 Obelisk spiders out, lightning strike and a land in hand and 6 mana in the full jund spectrum. Opponent is playing a lifegain sideboard option for UW approach.

Opponent swings in with the 5/3 flyer and I block with my reach spider, thinking i have the game won. I expected my spider to die, triggered ability to put a -1/-1 counter on the Sphinx which would survive combat, and the unengaged spider 2nd triggered ability would fire. That would bring my opponent to 3 life,  and the lightning strike would finish it.

Concensus of other players at the store was that the Sphinx's ability fizzles the -1/-1 counter triggered ability. That was game 2, opponent drew into lifegain, so I lost that round.

I think the Sphinx isn't targeted by the spider's 1st ability,  so the Sphinx's ability does not apply. The same would happen in combat with a hexproof creature, in my understanding of the rules.

If I got this wrong, and they were right, can someone point me to where I went wrong in my thinking?

[Soren841]

I think it targets, the target is chosen after damage and was the sphinx

[CardAgain Sweater]

I think it targets, the target is chosen after damage and was the sphinx

That was pretty much the argument made by my opponent - "it feels like it targets the sphinx, so it does". My counter-argument is to ask where the word 'target' occurs in the text of Obelisk spider's abilities? The counter is placed on the creature the spider hit with combat damage. Combat does not equal targeting, there was no chance to pick, or target a creature.

A simular effect is seen in vizier of many faces - it's etb ability does not use the word 'target' when it selects a creature to copy, so you can't remove the target creature to fizzle the ability. They just pick a new creature to copy as it resolves.

The key to my argument is no targeting ever occured.

[Borg]

I think you are correct, CardAgain Sweater.

Obelisk Spider's effect is like a variant of Infect or Wither in the sense that it puts a maximum of only one -1/-1 counter on the other creature when damage is dealt and not as many as the total damage dealt like with Wither or Infect.
This effect is not targeted afaik, just like the Flanking ability for example is not targeted either.

Where exactly this is covered in the rules however : ?

[Morganator 2.0]

No, you are right. It doesn't specifically say "target", so the sphinx does not counter that ability. This is a new twist on the deathtouch vs hexproof argument; if a creature with hexproof is attacking, and you block with a deathtouch creature, the hexproof creature will still die.

[Soren841]

It's different, wither and infect are replacement effects for damage, it says whenever it deals damage to a creature, and once it does, the ability goes on the stack targeting whatever creature it dealt damage to, it doesn't say target because you don't get to choose

[CardAgain Sweater]

It's different, wither and infect are replacement effects for damage, it says whenever it deals damage to a creature, and once it does, the ability goes on the stack targeting whatever creature it dealt damage to, it doesn't say target because you don't get to choose

You are right in that obelisk spider's 1st ability is not a replacement effect for the combat damage - both happen, and in this case, the sphinx would survive both occuring. I think that is why the previous poster used the language " like a variant of wither or infect". Many people do think it is wither damage the 1st time they read the spider.

As far as your idea that it automatically targets the creature damaged in combat, it may seem intuitive, but it doesn't happen that way. Someone just pointed me to this part of the rules:

114.1d A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase “target [something],” where the “something” is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack; see rule 603.3d.

114.9a Just because an object or player is being affected by a spell or ability doesn’t make that object or player a target of that spell or ability. Unless that object or player is identified by the word “target” in the text of that spell or ability, or the rule for that keyword ability, it’s not a target.

I'm satisfied; thank you to all who replied, it was all helpful to get to the solution. What a website!

[Mostlynotgay]

If I can chime in here, I cooooooooonstantly run into the same thing when I play deflecting palm. It doesn’t say target, so it can hit shroud, he proof, protection, etc. “that” is not target, but it utterly triggers people who’ve cheated out Emrakul or casted an uncounterable Lightening Storm.