Brewing CEDH Decks

[Red_Wyrm]

Hello.

First off I will say I've looked at the intro to CEDH thread, and read it in its entirety.

There are a lot of combos that win the game instantly and it seems CEDH is a race to get one of these combos off. My question is what exactly is a CEDH player doing when they are "brewing" with a new card like prime speaker vannifar?

When I build my decks, I think of what I want to do. I want to amass an army of goblins and kill my opponents quickly. So I put a lot of cards that help do that in the deck. I learned later that I had an infinite combo in the deck that won the game on the spot. I had skirk prospector, krenko, mob boss, aggravated assault, and impact tremors out, along with a few tokens. I was able to sac the tokens to make enough mana to activate aggravated assault, which untapped krenko for infinite activations and infinite etb effects on impact tremor.

I discovered this completely on accident. So say I want to brew with prime speaker vannifar. Aside from looking up broken ways to combo out on turn 3 or 4 with him(her?) Can someone explain how a CEDH player found out how to exploit the prime speaker. And then what process do you use to build your deck once you have the combo pieces?

[Soren841]

Well first let's assume every cEDH player has  fairly large amount of card knowledge from just playing and brewing for so long. We basically already know that we need untappers to break Vannifar, and we know what most of them are (had to search for a few) because of decks like Selvala and Marwyn, and because KikiPod is somewhat played.

So that leaves the wincon. Basically it's split between Hulk and Deadeye shenanigans in the community rn. Everyone just automatically knows what Hulk is, he's the bogeyman basically. So, she's in the colors for Flash Hulk and she is a sac outlet for Hulk that also grabs protection in Archetype of Endurance. We can see all of this already just with what we know, so obviously it didn't take long to build the first drafts. The Deadeye lines are a bit less played and I'm not sure who made the line to put it into Vannifar, but basically you look for ways to abuse her ability that ends in some relatively compact combo. The card search on here makes it easy because I can search an effect that I'm looking for and see what cards do that.

Sorry if I rambled, I suck at writing stuff.. feel free to have me clarify any points lol

[Morganator 2.0]

Yay, I'm really glad you read the intro thread!

Half the deck is usually routine stuff. Make your land base, add in mana ramp, card draw, tutors, interaction, and the deck is over half done.

Basically when a new commander comes out, you need to look at what they do and think "How do I break this card?" Recently (same set as Prime Speaker Vannifar) I had to do this with Lavinia, Azorius Renegade. I noticed two important things with her.

• My opponents can't cast things for free.
• My opponents can't cast things if they have few lands.

So I (and many others) brewed Lavinia with land destruction, and cards that forced people to cast stuff for free (Knowledge Pool). This way, Lavinia works by hard-locking or soft-locking my opponents, long enough for me to set up my combo (I used Approach of the Second Sun).

[Red_Wyrm]

Well first let's assume every cEDH player has  fairly large amount of card knowledge from just playing and brewing for so long. We basically already know that we need untappers to break Vannifar, and we know what most of them are (had to search for a few) because of decks like Selvala and Marwyn, and because KikiPod is somewhat played.

So that leaves the wincon. Basically it's split between Hulk and Deadeye shenanigans in the community rn. Everyone just automatically knows what Hulk is, he's the bogeyman basically. So, she's in the colors for Flash Hulk and she is a sac outlet for Hulk that also grabs protection in Archetype of Endurance. We can see all of this already just with what we know, so obviously it didn't take long to build the first drafts. The Deadeye lines are a bit less played and I'm not sure who made the line to put it into Vannifar, but basically you look for ways to abuse her ability that ends in some relatively compact combo. The card search on here makes it easy because I can search an effect that I'm looking for and see what cards do that.

Sorry if I rambled, I suck at writing stuff.. feel free to have me clarify any points lol

So I'm going to try and break the thought process down like you described. Let me know of any advice you have.


So the prime speaker let's us tutor for a creature into play if we sac a creature and tap vannifar. The best way to go up the chain is to start with an x drop. Search for an x+1 drop that can untap vannifar, which will ultimately let us search for an x+2 drop which will hopefully lead to an x+3,x+4... etc drop until we find our win con. Note we need the win con to be a creature so we can get it with vannifar. I cant think of a win con without specifically searching for vannifar win con. But hopefully I'll get there eventually. My card knowledge is very limited. Started playing in original innistrad. Never heard of eldrazi before bfz.

What are other commanders cedh players are brewing with to make work, but haven't quite become cedh yet?

Morgantor, the intro thread was great. You should be proud. Also. Eye of the storm for lavania?

[Red_Wyrm]

I feel it is important to mention this.

I noticed prime speaker vannifar grabs combo pieces. The problem that I cant find a solution to is that it can only grab one combo piece of you search for a creatures that untap a target on etb (untappong vannifar) until you can chain into your one combo piece. Then, at the end of the chain, you'll have a tapped vannifar and half a combo out. Youd need another way to untap her to get the train going to find the other combo piece on the same turn, as well as another line of on curve untappers. With all this setup, I dont understand how it is competitive.


Thanks guys. I hope that made sense. It did in my head. But my head has let me down in the recent past. Stupid physics midterm.

[Judaspriester]

Hmm.. as far as I get your posst, you lack in card knowledge and it sounds like you haven't got much EDH experience either. So I don't really get, why do you want to start on a competetive level?

Don't get me wrong, if you want to play on that level its fine, but I would expect a very steep learning curve.

[Morganator 2.0]

This might help. Let's assume that the starting creature is Dryad Arbor. You'll notice that you don't necessarily need to start with a zero mana creature.

Deadeye Navigator line

• Sacrifice Dryad Arbor to get Quirion Ranger. Return a forest to untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Quirion Ranger to get Scryb Ranger. Return a forest to untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Scryb Ranger to get Trophy Mage. Trophy Mage searches for Thousand-Year Elixir. Play the elixir and untap Vannifar
• Sacrifice Trophy Mage to get Fatestitcher. Use Fatestitcher to untap Vannifar, thanks to the Thousand-Year Elixir.
• Sacrifice Fatestitcher for Peregrine Drake. Untap 5 lands. Unearth the Fatestitcher so it can untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Peregrine Drake to get Deadeye Navigator. Pair it with Vannifar, and then pay 2 mana to flicker Vannifar, and don't re-pair.
• Sacrifice Fatestitcher to get Body Double. Body Double enters as a copy of Peregrine Drake. Pair it with Deadeye Navigator. Generate infinite mana by continuously untapping lands.
• Flicker Body Double and have it enter as a copy of Trophy Mage. Search for Staff of Domination. With infinite mana and infinite draw, you kinda just win.

A lot of these cards already see play in certain decks, so just be memory, the brewer can figure out a path for the combo. As you play more decks and build more, eventually you will also be able to think up of cards for your combo. For something like Vannifar, you can also just search up creatures that untap another creature when they enter.

[WizardSpartan]

This might help. Let's assume that the starting creature is Dryad Arbor. You'll notice that you don't necessarily need to start with a zero mana creature.

Deadeye Navigator line

• Sacrifice Dryad Arbor to get Quirion Ranger. Return a forest to untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Quirion Ranger to get Scryb Ranger. Return a forest to untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Scryb Ranger to get Trophy Mage. Trophy Mage searches for Thousand-Year Elixir. Play the elixir and untap Vannifar
• Sacrifice Trophy Mage to get Fatestitcher. Use Fatestitcher to untap Vannifar, thanks to the Thousand-Year Elixir.
• Sacrifice Fatestitcher for Peregrine Drake. Untap 5 lands. Unearth the Fatestitcher so it can untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Peregrine Drake to get Deadeye Navigator. Pair it with Vannifar, and then pay 2 mana to flicker Vannifar, and don't re-pair.
• Sacrifice Fatestitcher to get Body Double. Body Double enters as a copy of Peregrine Drake. Pair it with Deadeye Navigator. Generate infinite mana by continuously untapping lands.
• Flicker Body Double and have it enter as a copy of Trophy Mage. Search for Staff of Domination. With infinite mana and infinite draw, you kinda just win.

A lot of these cards already see play in certain decks, so just be memory, the brewer can figure out a path for the combo. As you play more decks and build more, eventually you will also be able to think up of cards for your combo. For something like Vannifar, you can also just search up creatures that untap another creature when they enter.

This makes me want to play Vannifar. How would the Protean Hulk combo work? I, too, am inexperienced in the ways of the cEDH community, and I don't know many combos outside of various infinite mana combos + Walking Ballista, etc. I know of all those untappers because I play Marwyn for fun, but I usually win through a truckload of elves + Craterhoof Behemoth and other mass buffs (I don't play in a competitve group)

[Soren841]

Simic Ezuri, Sage of Hours, and 4 0 drops is infinite turns

[Morganator 2.0]

Simic Ezuri, Sage of Hours, and 4 0 drops is infinite turns

Here, I'll give the non-abridged version.

When blue is added to the mix, Protean Hulk combo becomes Flash Hulk combo. You cast Flash, revealing Protean Hulk, and then don't pay the two mana to keep it alive. The deck is fast because you include cards like Summoner's Pact, Mystical Tutor, and Worldly Tutor, to improve your odds of getting both Flash and Protean Hulk in your hand.

Vannifar adds a few other things. Firstly is that you can search up Spellseeker to get you Flash. Second, the combo changes slightly.

• Sacrifice Dryad Arbor to get Quirion Ranger. Return a forest to untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Quirion Ranger to get Scryb Ranger. Return a forest to untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Scryb Ranger to get Trophy Mage. Trophy Mage searches for Thousand-Year Elixir. Play the elixir and untap Vannifar
• Sacrifice Trophy Mage to get Fatestitcher. Use Fatestitcher to untap Vannifar, thanks to the Thousand-Year Elixir.
• Sacrifice Fatestitcher getting Tidewater Minion. It untaps Vannifar
• Sacrifice Tidewater Minion getting Great Oak Guardian, which untaps Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Great Oak Guardian to get Protean Hulk. Unearth Fatestitcher and use it to untap Vannifar.
• Sacrifice Protean Hulk finding nothing with Vannifar's ability.
• Use Protean Hulk's death trigger to find Sage of Hours, Ezuri, Claw of Progress, and 4 creatures with 0 power and CMC 0 (like Memnite, Ornithopter, Endless One, and Shifting Wall). You instantly get 5 experience counters.
• Come combat, you put 5 +1/+1 counters on Sage of Hours. You now have infinite extra turns.

Of course, you'll want Flash Hulk instead, because it is generally faster and harder to stop.

[Soren841]

I have concluded that Morganator is me from the future

[WWolfe]

I have concluded that Morganator is me from the future

God help us if there's two Soren's...


(kidding)

[Soren841]

See it makes sense! If he were future me, he'd be posting back in time (at the same time as me), but since it'd be difficult to affect the past, it's delayed from when MY posts are. ALSO, a lot of the time he basically says what I said but he says it better. Obviously, in the future I'll be better at communicating my thoughts into text.. what's the future like Morganator?

[Morganator 2.0]

Now to answer this question.

What are other commanders cedh players are brewing with to make work, but haven't quite become cedh yet?

It seems contrary, but a lot of cEDH players are very dismissive. If a commander doesn't immediately catch their eye, they ignore it. This could just be because that is the attitude of the people who run the TappedOut tier list. A lot of the commanders under Tier 2 of this list are at the border; they are really high powered, but not quite competitive.
https://deckstats.net/decks/86132/1184089-cedh-tier-list/en

While a lot of these decks are strong, and are often referred to as competitive decks, they are just stopping short of being able to go toe-to-toe with the more powerful decks. I encourage anyone to brew with these commanders, and see if you can discover something that no one else has done yet. A couple highlights that I think are worth mentioning.

Muldrotha, the Gravetide: These are the three strongest colors in commander (fight me!), so we know that the combo potential is there. Muldrotha is also able to recur stax pieces. Her mana cost is restrictive, but there has got to be something we've overlooked. This is the commander that I think is most likely to go up a tier if brewed properly.

Teysa Karlov: She only came out recently, so maybe we just need to give her some time. So far, all the decks I've seen use her for value, but we need something that goes from "value" to "game winning".

Inalla, Archmage Ritualist: Most decks keep her in the command zone, and only bring her out if they have 4 wizards and Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal. The Wanderwine Prophets combo just isn't strong enough for cEDH. I can't rationalize it, but I have a hunch that there is another way to use her second ability.

Kruphix, God of Horizons: While the last three commanders might not have been brewed enough, Kruphix is probably just waiting for some new tech to be released.

Sai, Master Thopterist: The main issue with Sai is that any brew you come up with would probably work better in Arcum Dagsson. But there might be some combo out there that was overlooked.

Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire: An excellent removal commander that suffers the same downside as Muldrotha; 6 mana is a lot for a commander that doesn't straight-up win the game (like Narset, Enlightened Master). I don't know why, but I just get the feeling that there is some potential here that has been ignored.

What's the future like Morganator?

Most everyone in first-world countries are cyborgs (hence Morganator 2.0). Aliens made contact, and now ignore us (something about "too creepy"). Dwayne the Rock is President, and actually doing a good job (aside from the the fact that the cabinet settles arguments with wrestling). Global warming is still a bitch. And strangely enough, the cardstock quality of Magic cards has actually gone down.

[Soren841]

I consider High Power close enough to cEDH. It's really not, and occasionally I won't be interested in playing a pod with them, but usually they're enough to at least hang with the big boys.. I might have to revisit Sai lol, I tried him when he was spoiled. And yes, a lot of cEDH players (especially the ones like Shaper, Gigi, Sigi, etc.) go beyond close minded. It's their way or they hate you. At least I, while being argumentative and incredibly persistent, don't hate you for disagreeing