deckstats.net
You need to be logged in to do this.
The buttons above will open in a new window. Please return to this window after you have logged in. When you have logged in, click the Refresh Session button and then try again.

Author Topic: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander  (Read 1541 times)

Morganator 2.0

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2628
  • Karma: 2488
  • Decks
Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« on: September 17, 2019, 12:46:48 am »
Stax has a bit of a bad reputation in EDH. People tend to not like it, because it makes it harder for them to play their deck. A lot of people also make the case that stax makes the game less fun. No one likes getting locked out of the game, and then having to watch one person play with themselves. For this reason, a lot of people exclude stax effects from their commander decks.

But you don't need to go all-out with a stax strategy, you can instead add some weak stax to your current decks. You can use some very specific deck tech, to help counteract some of the decks you'll be going up against. If you sometimes go up against decks that are stronger than your own, the suggestions here are a good way of bringing those decks down to your level. It will provide a new challenge to your opponents, and make them have to think differently about deck building.

Now for the overview. I've listed these in order of most relevant to least relevant. Depending on your group, some of the things lower on the list might be more relevant, so be sure to take a good look at your meta before deciding what tech to use.

Pillowfort
Description: This one's at the top because there is a good chance that you or someone you know is already using pillowfort effects. Pillowfort is designed to stop creatures from attacking you. Because a lot of casual decks win with combat damage, not getting attacked is definitely useful.
Examples:
Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Sphere of Safety: These make nice little friendly options. Paying mana to attack isn't asking for too much, and your opponents can always choose to attack someone else. Be careful though; with the exception of Sphere of Safety, your opponents can still attack your Planeswalkers.
Crawlspace, Silent Arbiter: This is the one you use if you're frequently attacked by a buttload of Rhino tokens (Thanks to Ghired, Conclave Exile). Limiting the amount of creatures attacking you makes choosing blockers easier.
Meekstone, Ensnaring Bridge: If lots of creatures isn't a problem in your meta, but really big creatures are (Volrath, the Shapestealer, Zurgo Helmsmasher) you can use one of these options instead. Be careful with these ones though, it's a symmetrical effect, so it could hurt you as well.
Lightmine Field, Peacekeeper: Alternatively, if you really don't like creatures attacking at all, you can use one of these. Keep in mind that these are also symmetrical effects, so you probably shouldn't use them if you plan on winning with combat damage.
When to use it: Most casual playgroups have combat damage as their main win condition. Pillowfort allows you to survive into the late-game. Many pillowfort effects are also asymmetrical, so you don't have to worry about it affecting you.
When to not use it: If combat damage is one of your win conditions, don't use symmetrical pillowfort. If your playgroup mostly ignores combat and wins with either effect-based damage (Purphoros, God of the Forge) or combos, pillowfort does nothing. Pillowfort also becomes non-existent once you get into cEDH.

Grave-hate
Description: I'm always surprised by how little grave-hate there is in Commander. Especially considering the popularity of commanders like Muldrotha, the Gravetide, Meren of Clan Nel Toth, The Scarab God, The Gitrog Monster, Lord Windgrace, and now Chainer, Nightmare Adept. Even for smaller effects like Necromancy or Regrowth, grave-hate is helpful. I highly recommend adding in some good grave-hate.
Examples:
Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Sentinel Totem, Nihil Spellbomb: These ones are low-cost, simple, effective, and can go in pretty much any deck. Each of them exile at instant speed, which makes them useful in a number of situations. If your opponent goes to reanimate a creature, exile it.
Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace: These will cost a little bit of money, but they are super-effective at turning off graveyard strategies. You can't have graveyard shenanigans without a graveyard.
Grafdigger's Cage, Ground Seal: I've grouped these two together, but they actually do very different things. What they have in common, is that these can be used in a graveyard-based deck, depending on your strategy. Muldrotha, the Gravetide can use Ground Seal, because you don't target the spells in your graveyard. The Scarab God can use Grafdigger's Cage because the creatures don't enter from the graveyard, they are token copies.
Bojuka Bog, Angel of Finality: I've included these ironically. These are examples of what you don't want for grave hate. Good grave hate needs to either be instant speed, or a continuous effect. One-time exile at sorcery speed is not enough to disrupt most graveyard strategies.
When to use it: You should almost always have just a little bit of grave-hate. Even if there isn't a token graveyard deck in your group, there is almost certainly some recursion effects floating around.
When to not use it: If you are a graveyard deck, be very careful about what you use. You do not want to shut out your own strategy, but you often have other options.

Anti-spells
Description: Some decks are really good at casting more than one spell in a turn (Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain, Marwyn, The Nurturer, Narset, Enlightened Master). This can be troublesome if your gameplan is to play increasingly bigger threats, instead of multiple spells in a turn. A lot of combo decks also depend on casting a bunch of spells in one turn, so this is an excellent way of bringing them down to your level.
Examples:
Rule of Law, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Arcane Laboratory, Ethersworn Canonist: These ones directly stop multiple spells from being cast in a turn. If you aren't going to cast more than one spell, neither should anyone else.
Damping Sphere: This one is special, and do not underestimate it for a second. The amount of combos this card stops is unreal. It also stops players from snow-balling, allowing the slower players a chance to catch up. I recommend this card if there is a power gap between decks in your meta.
Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Sphere of Resistance: I'm not saying don't use these, I'm saying be careful about using them. Remember how I said that a lot of people just don't like stax? In casual metas, the cards on their own don't stop decks, they just irritate the players. This can easily make you an archenemy. In competitive or stronger pods it shouldn't be a problem, because then they will make a significant difference.
Possibility Storm: Save the best for last right? Best is arguable, but Possibility Storm wildly messes up a bunch of decks by making their consistent strategy a total mess. Be careful about combining Possibility Storm with something like Rule of Law, because that makes a hard-lock.
When to use it: Use cards like these when you know there is going to be a deck at the table that consistently casts a lot of spells in one turn. This tends to only happen in higher-powered groups, so you probably don't need to worry about these effects.
When to not use it: If the decks in your meta already only cast a few spells each turn, then you don't need this form of deck tech. They would just be dead cards.

Draw hate
Description: A big part of winning games (across all formats, not just Commander) is card advantage. Being able to draw more cards than your opponents means you'll have more options for what to play, and better options for what to play. A lot of good draw spells cost money though, so instead, you can limit the cards your opponents draw.
Examples:
Spirit of the Labyrinth, Narset, Parter of Veils: These two cards are very self-explanatory. Narset also has the added bonus of being asymmetrical.
Notion Thief: This guy is something special. Windfall is a staple blue card. You can flash in Notion Thief in response to Windfall, so that you draw all the cards that your opponents would have drawn. You become the only person with cards in their hand, so you kinda just win. Alms Collector does something similar, but not as good as Notion Thief.
When to use it: If they don't hurt your strategy, and you can spare the extra card slot(s), then these cards are perfect. Until you see it action, you really don't know just how much these will mess up your opponents.
When to not use it: It can be hard to slot in cards like these, because it's hard to judge if you should use a card that you know will be good in your deck, versus a card that is good in certain situations. If you have the colors for it, I do recommend Notion Thief at least.

If there was something I missed, let me know.

Judaspriester

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1523
  • Karma: 498
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2019, 09:53:30 am »
For Pillowfort Crackdown would be worth mentioning. It's a little more expensive manawise than Meekstone, but for some decks the "non-white" exclusion can make a significant difference.

Then I think that we can at least discuss about Ashiok, Dream Render. He isn't the best gravehate since it's only at sorcery speed, but (at least if you manage to protect him) you can use him more than once and he shuts down tutors. Besides that he isn't that hard to play in UGx decks because of his hybrid mana.

/edit: besides that, good work!
You say Prison Cell, I hear 'Holiday'.

ApothecaryGeist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1023
  • Karma: 605
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2019, 01:09:28 pm »
/edit: besides that, good work!


Morganator 2.0 is the king of EDH lists!
Happy Brewing!
:)

robort

  • Patron
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1725
  • Karma: 437
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2019, 02:05:30 pm »
I personally don't mind stax in general. Like morgantor stated is the challenge it brings and how I have to rethink my strategy based around stax.  My Thantis deck does this as well just in a different way. I like to use Spreading Plague and Portcullis because it shuts down heavy creature based strategies but it brings the challenge to the game and makes you think.

I would agree to almost auto include Notion Thief in a deck. I have seen this card in action, most of the time there is some player who is trying to get a heavy card advantage and nothing says I get those cards better then Notion Thief.

A legend in my own mind or so what the voices keep telling me

Soren841

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5088
  • Karma: 606
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2019, 02:47:25 pm »
/edit: besides that, good work!


Morganator 2.0 is the king of EDH lists!

Smh I'm the true king
Nils is the God I worship

dexflux

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 26
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2019, 03:27:46 pm »
Specific hate pieces such as Torpor Orb deserve attention as well, since they deny many decks' momentum.

Morganator 2.0

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2628
  • Karma: 2488
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2019, 03:39:52 pm »
Smh I'm the true king

Fight me!



Specific hate pieces such as Torpor Orb deserve attention as well, since they deny many decks' momentum.

This is totally true. Cards like Torpor Orb, Containment Priest, Gaddock Teeg, and Stranglehold can be really good, but they are a little more specific. You need to really get a good look at your meta to see if they're worth using. When in doubt, test them out. If it's not stopping people as much as you'd like, you can just swap them back out.

CleanBelwas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 923
  • Karma: 899
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2019, 04:39:06 pm »
Just giving a mention to Baird, Steward of Argive for the Pillowfort section. While it's not necessarily as good as the other cards mentioned, it's not without merit in certain decks.

A friend of mine runs a Sisay, Weatherlight Captain superfriends deck where it does a lot of work as it is easily tutored for and also protects planeswalkers. He used to run Ghostly Prison but has found Baird to be a lot more reliable. It's not a bad piece for decks that care about creatures and/or legendaries (Sisay), a protection piece in superfriends, or any decks that can easily recur creatures (Athreos Hatebears for example).

Worth a mention to put it on peoples radar for those looking to implement these kind of effects.

Morganator 2.0

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2628
  • Karma: 2488
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2019, 08:12:01 pm »
Miscellaneous
Description: The cards I'm about to list are mostly unique. There aren't many cards like these, and the situations that you would use them in your deck are even more narrow. If ever you're unsure about using these cards, test them out a little in your meta. If it doesn't seem like they're making a big difference, you can remove them.

Each section also has a list of commanders attached to them. If you see commanders like these in your meta, consider using those hate pieces. Note that it's not a complete list of the commanders they are good against.

Aven Mindcensor, Stranglehold, Mindlock Orb, Ashiok, Dream Render: The anti-tutors. Searching for cards is pretty common in commander, meaning this will hard-core mess with people. Even Evolving Wilds searches. These cards unfortunately have the same draw-back as the card draw hate; it can be hard to find a slot for them. Commanders to use against: Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Prime Speaker Vannifar.

Aura of Silence, Stony Silence, Null Rod, Collector Ouphe: Artifact hate. These cards have the same downside as tax effects; they draw a lot of hate. Lots of decks use artifacts for mana, and people don't like it when you mess with their mana base. These are also mostly symmetrical effects, so they can hurt you as well. Generally, you should only use this is artifact-based strategies are common. Commanders to use against: Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain, Breya, Ethirium Shaper.

Containment Priest: Now here's a tricky piece of hate.  A lot of reanimation strategies fold to her, because the creatures get exiled instead. Cheating in creatures from elsewhere also doesn't work, they just get exiled. And most sinister of all, she has flash, so she comes in when least expected, and sticks around. Commanders to use against: Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Prime Speaker Vannifar, Kaalia of the Vast.

Cursed Totem, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Suppression Field, Pithing Needle: Creature stax. Many of these effects are symmetrical, so they will hurt you too. Also, if it doesn't specifically say it excludes mana abilities, then in does also shut off mana abilities. Commanders to use against: Any commander with an activated ability. Also green decks that use creature-based ramp.

Humility: This is another kind of creature stax, but I think it deserves special attention. Humility absolutely wrecks any deck that depends on creatures, which is damn near all of them. Unfortunately, because it's symmetrical, it will also wreck your strategy, so make sure you're okay with losing your commander (Or just use Estrid the Masked or Aminatou, the Fateshifter as your commander).

Torpor Orb, Hushwing Gryff, Tocatli Honor Guard: No more enter the battlefield effects (at least from creatures). While this will moderately effect most decks (almost all have something like Plaguecrafter or Coiling Oracle) it will only do that; moderately effect them. Commanders to use against: Brago, King Eternal, Yarok, the Desecrated, many graveyard decks.

Blood Moon, Blood Sun, Root Maze, Back to Basics: now here's the one you need to be the most careful about; land stax. People hate it when you mess with their mana base. You also need to make sure it's not going to hurt you too much. The examples I've included here are aimed at hurting non-basic lands mostly, because that gives casual decks a little leeway, while it severely damages decks with stronger land bases. Think about Root Maze in a competitive setting. Your opponent plays a fetch land, that enters tapped, and on their next turn, they use it to get a land, that also enters tapped. Commanders to use against: All. Again, be very careful about using this anywhere outside of cEDH.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 05:17:55 pm by Morganator 2.0 »

dexflux

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 26
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2019, 02:52:50 pm »
Miscellaneous

Aura of Silence, Stony Silence, Null Rod, Collector Ouphe: Artifact hate. These cards have the same downside as tax effects; they draw a lot of hate. Lots of decks use artifacts for mana, and people don't like it when you mess with their mana base. These are also mostly symmetrical effects, so they can hurt you as well. Generally, you should only use this is artifact-based strategies are common. Commanders to use against: Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain, Breya, Ethirium Shaper.

Don't forget Karn, the Great Creator. The fact that he's asymmetrical can be backbreaking for opponents; see: the lock with Mycosynth Lattice.

Other than that, nonbasic land hate should actually be played more often. Also cards like Ruination. A 4c or 5c manabase without many basics should have a price. Also add Magus of the Moon to that list, as that card's a good alternative to Blood Moon in decks like Chainer, Nightmare Adept.

Himate123

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: 69
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2019, 03:26:21 pm »
For go-wide strategy a cheap piece I like is Authority of the Consuls.

dexflux

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 26
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2019, 04:23:05 pm »
For go-wide strategy a cheap piece I like is Authority of the Consuls.

Don't forget Blind Obedience, which also offers Extort in anything WX.

WWolfe

  • Patron
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3687
  • Karma: 1367
  • Banging and (spell) slanging!
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2019, 05:49:14 pm »
This space for rent.

Judaspriester

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1523
  • Karma: 498
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2019, 05:11:06 pm »
With Throne of Eldraine we got another nice piece for soft-stax: Hushbringer. 1/2 flying, lifelink, stops ETB and Die trigger. In addition to the blocked ETB trigger, it would work great against cards like Gravepact or Blood Artist.
You say Prison Cell, I hear 'Holiday'.

WWolfe

  • Patron
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3687
  • Karma: 1367
  • Banging and (spell) slanging!
  • Decks
Re: Using weak-stax/deck tech in Commander
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2019, 05:39:25 pm »
I forgot all about Hushbringer and I actually already had traded for one from a friend that pulled it at the pre-release.
This space for rent.