[Magistrate's Scepter] How to stop unlimited turns?

[Federico Rosano]

I hate infinite combos. I hate playing against them and even playing with a combo deck. I simply don't get where the fun come from, as a casual player. I recently build a deck around Charge Counters (see the latest on my profile) using the awesome Magistrate's Scepter. As soon as I found out I could have played unlimited turns with it, I was disappointed.

This is how I feel it should be:


What do you think about it? What are your thoughts on infinite combos in general?

[CleanBelwas]

Hey man.

Interesting outlook.

I personally don't think Magistrates Scepter is too much of a problem as it is, but if preventing infinite turns is the desired outcome, I'd probably change it so that it only doesn't untap just when you activate the extra turn ability. That card feels a lot worse if you can only add a charge counter (without proliferate shenanigans) every other turn.

With regards to infinite combos in general, I totally get where you are coming from. I had a few decks that ran infinite combos and I took them all apart because it wasn't fun for my friends to be playing their decks, developing their board state and all of a sudden be out of the game. I do tend to exclusively play EDH and tend to play at a more casual level, so that no doubt contributes to my attitude.

That said, I understand that they are a part of the game. I think given the history of the game, the amount of cards available and the amount of interactions that are possible, it is inevitable that the odd infinite combo will be possible. It is certainly true that there are some that are very easy to assemble, which can feel a little unfun to play against.

I think ultimately it comes down to how you want to play, with who and at what level. I love combos, even infinite ones, and will gladly watch cEDH games or legacy games or modern games where decks are looking to combo off as early as possible.

I love hanging out with my friends and playing magic more, so I choose to not play them so that it's fun for everyone.

In a casual setting, either at the kitchen table or in your LGS, it is very much worth having that discussion so that everyone is on the same page. Finding players who want to get the same out of the game as you can go a long way for everyones enjoyment of the game. If people are happy to play ruthless combos, that's great and that's their choice, and if they aren't, that's cool too. As long as everyone is in the same boat, people should be having fun.

Once you enter more competitive play though, I think it needs to just be accepted as part of the game.

[Aetherium Slinky]

Unbender Tine, Voltaic Key, Aphetto Alchemist...

There are quite a few ways to break it and I think it adds a layer of complication but that complication is pretty trivial seeing that many of your charge counter artifacts will like untapping anyway.

I don't quite like infinite combos either but sometimes they're the only way to win. A Fblthp, the Lost EDH deck will almost always have to win by assembling Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal with mana rocks that produce more than (3) and then shoot the enemies with a Blue Sun's Zenith. Or Beacon of Tomorrows until the opponents deck themselves. So no, I don't like them but sometimes they're pretty much all you've got.

Things that stop infinite combos are (in order of effectiveness):
- split second (Wipe Away, Krosan Grip)
- most instant speed removal (Anguished Unmaking, Naturalize, Vandalblast, etc.)
- bounce, counter spells (Counterspell, Cyclonic Rift)
- things that say you can't lose (Platinum Angel)

For example the aforementioned Fblthp deck is very vulnerable to all of those. Including any of those in a regular 60-card casual deck shouldn't be very difficult. There are only a handful of strategies that can resist and no universal solution. To name some: protection, hexproof, phasing and counterspells. There's about four cards that can stop a split second spell: Stratus Dancer and the like, basically any morphing that counters a spell.

Now, what's the fun? Magic is a race to win. Infinite combos aren't a way to cheat, they're a way to win. You should embrace the fact that they're a legitimate strategy and a powerful tool. It's like casting Approach of the Second Sun for the second time: either your opponent has an answer to it or they don't. Is that cheating? While combat damage is a powerful strategy it's not really the only "fair" way to win. I mean mill is a popular strategy, too and it has nothing to do with combat damage. Or Darksteel Reactor + Eternity Vessel + Dismantle if we're talking about charge counters.

Magic is about versatile game play: that's why bans are issued, too, in order to keep the game evolving and full of options.

Regarding CleanBelwas' comment about board state and board building: to me assembling a combo through board presence is to sculpt a hand, draw cards, play important pieces. If you know someone might have a combo - i.e. you start seeing combo pieces and suspicious silence - you need to hurry to get a removal spell ready. It's pretty much the same as rushing to get blockers or removal if you see their creature numbers are rising rapidly. This is the sole reason most decks should run at least some removal and sacrifice space for that purpose only. It's a part of Magic being able to answer to your opponents...or you need a really fast combo yourself so that your opponent doesn't have time to react to it.

[CleanBelwas]

Regarding CleanBelwas' comment about board state and board building: to me assembling a combo through board presence is to sculpt a hand, draw cards, play important pieces. If you know someone might have a combo - i.e. you start seeing combo pieces and suspicious silence - you need to hurry to get a removal spell ready. It's pretty much the same as rushing to get blockers or removal if you see their creature numbers are rising rapidly. This is the sole reason most decks should run at least some removal and sacrifice space for that purpose only. It's a part of Magic being able to answer to your opponents...or you need a really fast combo yourself so that your opponent doesn't have time to react to it.

I agree with you entirely. I'm not against infinite combos at all and I think if they are in your meta you absolutely should build decks that have ways of dealing with them. That's just good deck building.

My point was more focused on making sure you're playing on the same level as your opponents when you're just playing casually. I have a group of friends who I play with. There are 3 of us who are more into it than the other 3, so we like to buy more cards, build more decks, put more thought into our strategies and what not. But ultimately we play to hang out with each other, drink a few beers, listen to some music and turn cardboard sideways. When this is your goal, having decks with disparate power levels playing against each other feels bad.

When it's just the three of us with the more powerful decks playing, the gloves are off. I'm getting a combo and you better have an answer. But for the most part, there is usually a mix, so I made the decision to remove those combos from a lot of decks and the gameplay is better as a result. I mean, our games can go pretty long, but they are interactive and fun and everyone is doing stuff and having a good time, so it's worth it.

[Federico Rosano]

Thank you for sharing your view on the topic.

Power is just a factor why I'm against unlimited combos. Cards like Gleam of Authority + Phalanx Leader or Tamanoa + Overabundance + Searing Meditation are both powerful combos, but neither falls into a non-ending loop where I'm a passenger of the game with no interactions whatsoever.
The first problem is that I'm definitely playing a solitare game at that point and it's not why I'm spending money on mtg cards. It's ok to use them in competitive tournaments, where fun comes with the victory. But anyway I feel like they're a sort of bug into the game that should be avoided through rules, at least in casual games.

[Blong]

Ugin's Nexus

Literally says "CEASE" to extra turns. Same with stuff like Stranglehold