Beating a Food Chain Deck

[Red_Wyrm]

Hello!

One of my friends the people I play with wants to make a food chain deck. Their decks simply do not compete with mine or my friend's or my brothers and he gets his behind handed to him nearly every game. His solution is apparently to build a cEDH deck. He stated he is a J-13 or something at work (I dunno what that means either), basically saying he can afford to make the deck. While our decks are strong, they are like budgeted versions of cEDH decks. So instead of making a deck to compete on a cEDH level, I wanted to make a deck specifically designed to stop a food chain deck from winning. A deck where every single card is to stop the food chain deck.

He wants to do the first sliver as the commander

My first thought was cards like extract and praetor's grasp to grab food chain as well as angel of jubilation to prevent sacrificing creatures to food chain.

However, all I know is that he wants a The First Sliver Food Chain cEDH deck. Does this mean copying a deck list off the internet, or copying the combo and making the rest of the deck? I don't know. WIll there be a backup combo like flash hulk or something? Again I don't know. I've sent him Soren's Sliver hulk list, so let's make a deck to beat that!

I would usually wait until I have seen the deck, but I want to shut this deck down before it has a chance to win at all. We are not a cEDH group, and we cannot be if we aren't going to do proxies, and I can already see this dude complaining if he buys the cEDH deck and then we proxy cEDH decks.

So please help! Thanks!

[Judaspriester]

the first sliver and food chain rely on the same thing: spell slining. he want to play alot of (free) spells in the same turn. Keep in mind that the cascade stuff also gets casted.

So the first thing you can do is preventing him from playing alot of spells or taxing them. Damping Sphere, Rule of Law etc.

The second thing is, he may want to use some tutors in order to secure that he'll get hands on food chain. So cards like Aven Mindcensor, Ashiok, Dream Render or Stranglehold will slow this process down.


/edit: Ethersworn Canonist would also work fine, if you have a artifact heavy deck yourself.

[Shredwick]

Guy's tired of always losing and just wants to win for once, and you want to shut him down before he even gets the chance?

[Morganator 2.0]

First off, is this the bitch-ass Elesh Norn player again? Cause it sounds like it.

Second, if you had to give them a Food Chain list, why did it have to be a good one? I could have made you a list that looked deceptively good, but is actually trash. Food Chain Sliver is a top-tier competitive deck, so it's going to be hard to beat if you're not also using a top-tier deck.

Third, let me get the apology out to Soren841. I'm about to tell everyone how to beat your deck.

Let's do this. Here's the decklist for everyone's reference. Throughout this posts some card names will be in red font. These are cards that sometimes show up in other Food Chain decks, but are notably absent from Soren841's list.

https://deckstats.net/decks/86132/1303784-sliver-hulk/

Deck Overview

First Sliver Food Chain is different from most Sliver decks. Notably: no slivers. It's a proactive combo deck, which means it focuses on speed; it goes for it's combo quickly and only interacts with other decks if they threaten the combo. The First Sliver decks I've seen have a consistent turn 3 win, with backup wins on turn 4 (I'll get to that in a second).

Primary Combo: Somehow, the deck gets Food Chain on the battlefield, and has either Eternal Scourge, Misthollow Griffin, or Squee, the Immortal in exile (I'm going to call them "Food Chain creatures" from now on). Because the deck is in 5 colors it has access to literally every commander-legal tutor. Three of note are Tainted Pact, Demonic Consultation, and Plunge into Darkness. Because these cards exile a large chunk of the deck in search of one card, it is also very likely that one of the Food Chain creatures will get exiled. They also periodically cause the deck to commit seppuku as all the win-cons get exiled, which is also fun to watch. Extract, Foresight, and Manipulate Fate are also used to get the Food Chain creatures. Also, mana dorks can be exiled with Food Chain to cast the Food Chain creature, so the combo can start with as little as 3 mana.

After this has been assembled, the deck generates infinite mana that can only be cast on creatures. The First Sliver gets cast, cascades, and is "sacrificed" to Food Chain so she can be cast again. Whatever is left of the deck gets cast. In the case of this deck, Goblin Bombardment is the outlet and Riftsweeper can get it back if it was exiled. Some lists will have other outlets, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

Secondary combo: Flash + Protean Hulk. Protean Hulk Fetches Viscera Seer and Body Double, which enters as a copy of Protean Hulk. It gets sacrificed, and searches out Vesperlark and Zulaport Cutthroat. With the Vesperlark ETB on the stack, it gets sacrificed. The ETB resolves, and returns Body Double to the battlefield as a copy of Vesperlark. With the ETB on the stack, it gets sacrificed, and then the ETB ability brings back Body Double. Infinite loop with Zulaport Cutthroat killing everyone.

This combo can come out really early. Like... turn 1 or 2 early. Both Flash and Protean Hulk are really easy to search up (Mystical Tutor, Summoner's Pact, and others) and this combo only takes 2 mana to start. This combo can also be assembled manually through the Food Chain combo, but that's less likely. Flash Hulk is a really hard combo to beat. So much that I had to start a thread asking how to beat it.

You really had to give them this list didn't you?

Fortunately, this variant is easier to interrupt than some of the other combos, but I'll get to that later.

Other combos: Tainted Jace is another combo that shows up in some lists. With Jace, Wielder of Mysteries on the battlefield, either Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact gets cast, exiling the entire deck. Jace's +1 gets activated and they win. Because this combo only requires 1 dead card and Jace is harder to remove than Laboratory Maniac, it shows up in some First Sliver lists. Fortunately, it's a mana-intensive combo, so it shows up slightly later than the other combos.

Protection and Resilience
Food Chain decks are naturally resistant to most stax effects. There are no activated abilities of creatures or artifacts, and the combo takes very little mana to start. To top it off, there is an incredible protection package. Autumn's Veil, Veil of Summer, and Silence defend against counterspells. Abrupt Decay, Nature's Claim, and Chain of Vapor can get rid of stax effects that do happen to threaten the deck. Finally, the low-cost counterspells can protect against all of these (it's no coincidence that the most expensive counterspell is 1 mana). To top it off, the deck's amazing tutor package can get any of these.

Stopping the Combos

You might get a lucky break, and they won't perfectly copy the list. If they do (more specifically, if they copy the fetch-lands) throw in Root Maze. It sucks that it's a symmetrical effect, but it hardcore hurts fetch-lands. Back to Basics and Blood Moon also seriously hurt a deck without any basics. The deck is very (almost entirely) dependent on it's tutor package, so shut it down. I recommend Aven Mindcensor and Ashiok, Dream Render, but not Stranglehold or Mindlock Orb. This is a fast combo, so you need to be able to reliably play your stax sooner than the combo, something you can't do with 4 mana stax.

To deal with the Food Chain, you can use Extract, just remember that they're not dead in the water (thanks to Rift Sweeper and the backup combo). Removing the Food Chain is an option, but the strong protection package means that you'll probably need a back-up counterspell or removal spell. Or Krosan Grip. Just remember to use your removal as the Food Chain creature is on the stack. This way, they've invested in their plan. As Judaspriester suggested, you can use stax effects that limit the number of noncreature spells that can be cast in a turn. Deafening Silence is a really good option, and anything that makes creatures cost more mana (Sphere of Resistance) stops the Food Chain combo. You can also use Phyrexian Revoker on the Food Chain (Pithing Needle won't work; it doesn't stop mana abilities).

For the Flash Hulk combo there is a lot of instant-speed interaction that can work. Stifleing the Protean Hulk trigger is simple, but I prefer Trickbind. Any good grave-hate also works to stop this combo, so I'm sure you can find some good options (HINT: not Bojuka Bog). Creature removal works too. Use it on the Viscera Seer or Zulaport Cutthroat after the first time Vesperlark gets sacrificed. The most dangerous thing about this combo is that it comes out early, so it's fairly easy to protect with a Pact of Negation or even Dispel.

Building your deck

This isn't the first time I've seen someone try to build a deck that specifically counters a competitive deck and isn't a cEDH deck itself.

I've yet to see a deck succeed at this.

What's important about proactive decks is they are rarely out of the game for long. If you place a stax piece, they will eventually find a way to remove it or bypass it (usually sooner than expected). If you stop a combo, they will go for a backup, or recur the defeated combo. The trick to beating a proactive combo deck: you have to win after you prevent/stop their combo. And soon after (1 or 2 turns max). This is something a non-cEDH deck can struggle with. So this is where I can't really help you. I can't think of a way of making a deck where every single card stops the deck. You'll still need mana ramp, card draw, tutors, and a win-condition.

But I can help you make a disruptive deck that is a good match-up against a Food Chain deck.

In the past I used Edric, Spymaster of Trest. It's a counterspell-heavy deck with card draw to match, so it's good at stopping most combo decks. If you don't want that, you're probably going to want a deck in white so you have access to most of the stax pieces you'll need. As far as I can tell, none of the stax pieces on their own stop both combos (Aven Mindcensor comes close). Green is good for mana ramp and to search for Aven Mindcensor. You'll need the ramp if you're going to keep up with The First Sliver. One deck in particular comes to mind.

Tana, the Bloodsower + Tymna the Weaver (Blood Pod)
This deck uses stax effects, and is geared towards stopping cEDH decks. It's able to quickly secure a win after the stax has been laid down. The downside is the deck can be expensive (4 colors, and you can't skimp on the stax pieces), and it also doesn't use it's commanders as much as other decks too. Here's the popular list if you're interested:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/meta-pod/

Closing remarks

If there was something that was unclear, let me know. If you think you found a deck that might also be a good match against Food Chain Sliver, let me know, and I can give some suggestions. This is going to be tough, so make sure everyone in your group is ready to deal with this.

[Red_Wyrm]

First off, is this the bitch-ass Elesh Norn player again? Cause it sounds like it.

HAHAHAHAHA Yes it is. How did you know? In fact he recently got a win with that deck like two days ago. Turn 1 land sol ring into another mana rock, I forget which. Then turn 2 gilded lotus, Turn 3 Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Turn 4 Lightning Greaves on Avacyn and from there we just couldn't catch up. I was playing my Kozilek, The Great Distortion deck, so I was pretty much helpless. Anyway, yes, tis him. And I really wanted to do a Korvold, Fae-Cursed King food chain deck, but now if I do, it'll look like I'm taking his idea of a food chain deck. And if you didn't know, Bitch Ass Elesh Norn Player is also this player: https://deckstats.net/forum/index.php/topic,43586.0.html


I am going to get to work on making a deck for this. I really like the Edric idea for the insane card draw he generates. I did have a thought though. Zur doomsday? I have the list I use on my homepage. It has a voltron strategy in it for when we play lower powered decks and a backup doomsday combo for cases like this. When we are playing high powered decks. The goal was for it to be able to run with any of our decks. And it, for the most part has been able to do so. I can grab the deck and not worry about any power disparity. With Zur I can fetch Back to Basics, Rule of Law, Nevermore and other stax pieces, and I can kind of kill the voltron stragety to focus solely on the doomsday aspect so that I can win after stopping bitch ass elesh norn player's combo.

Here is the list, if you could give me the thoughts on the idea.

https://deckstats.net/decks/69736/1382084-zur-budget-doomsday/en The mana base is as such mainly because I am poor and I also run back to basics in it.

Guy's tired of always losing and just wants to win for once, and you want to shut him down before he even gets the chance?

Hello sir. You are exactly correct. The problem I have is that this is a cEDH deck and we are not a cEDH group. I would love to do cEDH, but my friends don't want to do that, so we have not, despite my constant pleas for just proxying a single deck, no budget, with whatever we want, and only be allowed to play those decks against each other. Imagine playing standard, you keep losing for inferior playing ability. You get the all too rare win once in a while. So you bring a modern deck to fight that standard deck. Not really fair is it? I know the card pools for each is different as opposed to EDH and cEDH that have the same card pools, but instead of having different card pools, we have severely different budgets, allowing him to blend cEDH into our EDH playgroup. So yes. I want him to know this was absolutely the wrong decision to make. I expressed this to him. He is more than welcome to earn a win, not buy one.

Thanks!

[Morganator 2.0]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/ejcu02/beating_the_first_sliver_food_chain/

Oh... Oh I'm sorry.

Was my advice not good enough? You had to ask Reddit?

I see how it is...

[Red_Wyrm]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/ejcu02/beating_the_first_sliver_food_chain/

Oh... Oh I'm sorry.

Was my advice not good enough? You had to ask Reddit?

I see how it is...

Oh my god Morganator, no your advice was amazing! This made me laugh. I love you Morganator.

It just seems like there are more people on there. More people=more advice. Can never go wrong with more advice.

We're still friends, right?

[Morganator 2.0]

I'll forgive you in time.

Reddit did have some good points. Here are the highlights so no one has to click the link.

• Most people suggest that you handle this outside the game and tell this player that the group isn't ready to go to the cEDH level. I get the impression that this won't work.
• The rest of the people in your group should also put hate pieces in.

There was also one comment further down that deserves special attention.

The ideal game plan for Food Chain is something like T1 dork + fast mana, T2 Tainted Pact/Demonic Consultation for Food Chain, T3 Food Chain, exile the dork, play a Cast From Exile creature exiled by Tainted Pact, go off. So anything that interacts with that basic gameplay loop will set them way back.

Key points you can interact with:

• kill the dork; the deck often won't be able to cast their Cast From Exile creature the turn they play Food Chain without exiling the dork
• reduce their casts per turn; they can't win through a Rule of Law effect and struggle to even gain advantage
• hit their mana; they need black and green more than the other colors so Blood Moon/Back to Basics/Wasteland/Strip Mine can really slow them down
• exile Food Chain; this is a big one. Most of these decks have a flimsy plan B if you Praetor's Grasp or Revoke Existence Food Chain.
• race; eventually a combo deck trying to play cEDH will regroup and get their combo. They'll cyclonic rift EOT, get card advantage, and find a way to piece together the combo with all the hate pieces bounced. My Teshar deck is jank, but it is fast, often faster than Food Chain.

They basically said what I did in 5 sentences rather than 6 paragraphs. You should be wary about the "kill the dork" option, but it is a good choice if you have no other options. It would be good to do it soon (turn 1) but don't disregard the other threats at the table. Seeing a mana dork is no reason to throw typical threat assessment out the window.

As for the Zur deck, I would suggest a more stax-based approach than Doomsday. You'll need to improve the mana ramp to start, because you need to ensure that you can get your hate piece out before their combo. You'll also want Arcane Laboratory to stop the Food Chain combo, and an Idyllic Tutor to make finding it easier. If you want other suggestions for the deck let me know, and I'll post the non-Food-Chain-specific advice to the deck comments.

[Red_Wyrm]

Time heals all wounds. You should be happy to know that I'll still come to your for advice buddy. No subreddit can come between us.

You basically said silver bullet decks don't work/exist when it comes to cEDH. The decks are too resilient. You have to be able to stop the combo and then either win or kill them. On that note, I was thinking about my Flash Hulk deck and my Yidris Storm deck (both of which I do not own. Again, poor) Well I tried my best to make them competitive on the cEDH level, so I was looking towards them, wondering if I could tailor them to fight Food Chain First Sliver while also maintaining their original game plans to win the game. I also took a look at the Intro to cEDH thread for the 100th time and Scion of the Ur-Dragon stuck out to me because it is WUBRG, so it can have every stax piece/answer I need, and I can win via the animate dead/world gorger combo, or just annihilate the guy via Skithiryx, The Blight Dragon and that other dragon that has fire breathing for 1 red phyrexian mana.

I am off to go print out a shoot load of proxies and test out some decks. Aww and the school charges 5 cents per page. Like really? What is 5 cents to a university that quite literally paid hundreds of millions of dollars to tear down our football stadium and rebuild it two streets over? Five cents to me is like my income for the freaking week. Sorry. Rant over.

[WizardSpartan]

I don't know much about cEDH, but I do have experience with people creating decks at a much higher budget than the rest of the group. As others have said, get the rest of the table to help you out. If they aren't willing (as is true with my playgroup) let the guy win a few games. They'll learn very quickly how much of a threat he is.

[Spinsane]

I can’t compare to Morganator in regards to providing advice, but I’d like to point out that Food Chain doesn’t sacrifice, so Angel of Jubilation wouldn’t impact the deck in any way... (Also means Food Chain doesn’t trigger Korvold’s ability, unfortunately)

[Red_Wyrm]

I can’t compare to Morganator in regards to providing advice, but I’d like to point out that Food Chain doesn’t sacrifice, so Angel of Jubilation wouldn’t impact the deck in any way... (Also means Food Chain doesn’t trigger Korvold’s ability, unfortunately)

Oh shoot you're right.

[Slyvester12]

You might want to look into some of the cEDH decks that are specifically tailored to slowing others down. I run a version of the Momir Vig, Simic Visionary hackball list, which runs several stax pieces and a lot of counters because it can't reliably win before T4. But, it's also a cheaper deck if you don't run things like Gaea's Cradle, Force of Will, and Mana Crypt, without losing much of its viability. It's also an incredibly resilient combo deck that runs a tutor on a stick for a commander.

I also run Scion, albeit at a sub-competitive level. The molten skittles combo is cool because it can be a hasty 10 flying infect out of nowhere, but you need 10 mana to do that unless you want to protect Scion for a full turn. You either need some kind of protection or two free mana held up, to either counter removal or turn Scion into Silumgar, the Drifting Death for hexproof. That's still 6-7 mana. My point being, Scion is too slow to compete without AMAZING ramp, so I would look elsewhere to fight a real Food Chain deck.

Good luck stomping the man-child, though.

[Soren841]

Aww u gave them my list that's so freaking awesome dude! Basically what you have to do is counter Flash, counter Food chain, or be faster. Stax (as suggested) can work but is not advised unless it's extremely anti-creature to stop all the dorks. Stuff that only lets u cast one spell per turn is good but can be removed. Also like Morganator said (nice analysis btw) shutting off tutor effects is probably the strongest possible effect against our deck.