cEDH ban speculations

[Aetherium Slinky]

Flash + Hulk isn't fucking pubstomping if you're playing cEDH. It's just so much stronger than every other strategy that it's dominating the meta.. clearly you don't even know what pubstomping is??

All I was saying that since EDH and cEDH are the same format (have same rules, the same banlist etc) we should also let cEDH govern itself like most metas do. You shouldn't need RC to say "let's not play the oppressive fish today".

The alternative is that there are no such things as house bans, social contract or self-governing. In this case nothing is pub stomping because the point of the game is to win. We know this isn't how most players play EDH and that's where the similarities between EDH and cEDH end. For some reason. Now, Flash makes the gap bigger and more obvious. That's not something we'd like to happen because in our first argument we assumed EDH and cEDH are the same game, just at a different power level. Ergo Flash has to go, not only because it makes the meta stale but also because it stretches one of the main principles of EDH which is to encourage people to govern themselves.

[Soren841]

I was talking to that kid that said it's pubstomping

[robort]

Red_Wyrm,

Simply put yes even based with the philosophy of commander "The goal of the ban list is similar; it does not seek to regulate competitive play or power level, which are decisions best left to individual play groups."
So why can't individual play groups make their own decisions and self govern?

Then under FAQ about MLD and such there is another comment.
it’s a good idea to let people know what you’re planning before the game starts.  Ask if they’re ok with it, and be prepared to play something else if they’re not.
This comes with the communication aspect of the game and the individual play groups.

One more though... Taken to the extreme, strategies like “Draw Go” or MLD, which aim to restrict opponents’ ability to act at all, aren’t forbidden in Commander, but they aren’t very popular
So while yes MLD is indeed legal it just isn't very popular.

MustaKotka,

The bus on dividing camps left a good while ago. It started because the title/label of C put into Edh making up Cedh and now it is adapted that it be called Cedh instead of keeping it as Edh. You've already have 2 separate camps because of people making a separate camp calling it Cedh. But agreed though with flash is sperating those camps further apart from one another.

Soren,
You are always to laughable. The close mind of yours and your childish rant once again. The only way you try to get your point across is either swearing at others or even berating someone. Unlike you I can have an open minded discussion so I'll bite. In my 51 years of existence I have played my share of games. I know what pub stomping is and what it means.

But I wll take the meaning of it from the Urban dictionary https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pubstomp

The game is typically very one sided, despite the games being created under the false impression that it is going to be 'fair'.
So playing flash hulk and quote you it's dominating the meta. Sounds definitely one sided.

Again from the dictionary "Can apply to any team-oriented game". Last I recalled that playing magic the gathering is a team game.

[Soren841]

Pub stomping is going into a casual (i.e. PUBLIC game) and stomping them with a competitive deck. If you are playing in a game of cEDH, pubstomping does not exist. There is an understanding that every deck is as good as it possibly can be not that the game will be fair, and if you dominate that's because your deck is the best. Nobody called Splinter Twin in Modern "pubstomping" because you can't pubstomp. If I insult you and call you a retarded asshole it's not because I need to insult you to be right, it's because I genuinely believe it.

[Morganator 2.0]

I'm going to take a moment to remind everyone to attack people's arguments, and not the person behind them. You can argue against people's points without having to attack the person.

This is a rule of Deckstats and of real life, so you should strive to follow it at all times.

[robort]

Pub stomping is going into a casual (i.e. PUBLIC game) and stomping them with a competitive deck. If you are playing in a game of cEDH, pubstomping does not exist. There is an understanding that every deck is as good as it possibly can be not that the game will be fair, and if you dominate that's because your deck is the best. Nobody called Splinter Twin in Modern "pubstomping" because you can't pubstomp. If I insult you and call you a retarded asshole it's not because I need to insult you to be right, it's because I genuinely believe it.

Again and I will quote myself "The game is typically very one sided" which you can't seem to either want to grasp or refuse to grasp. Typically doesn't mean always and one sided can also be unintentional not always intentional. Using Flash/Hulk typically makes it very one sided hence again to quote you "it's dominating the meta"

Now the meaning of the slang word pub stomper. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pubstomper

A pubstomper is a name for someone who usually goes in alone or with a group of people to a public server on a game and complete trashes them.

It often originates from games like Dota and Team Fortress where there is large variety in people's skill levels, some being amazing and some being downright awful.

Now another term "usually" and again doesn't equate to "always" and also again can be done unintentionally.
Then the amazing skill and downright awful also apply in magic the gathering no matter what deck you are playing.

So yes pub stomping can and will happen at any and all levels along with any and all formats of magic the gathering whether it be done intentionally or unintentionally.

So continually fire away with the insults and swearing. I will continue to fire back with Logic and openmindness

[Judaspriester]

My 2 cents for the discussion (even if I already wanted to be in bed )

I'm far away from cEDH but I understand what flash hulk combos can do, and the fish hulk really looks terifying, since you basicly need to have a stiffle on your hand on turn 1 and always have to keep U open in order to cast it, since the combo can kick off at turn 1 (more likely turn 2 and afterwards). So I would agree that we've come to a point where flash really should banned.

The argument that flash doesn't get played often outside the "competetive" part of the community is somewhat lame for me. from my personal experience this has 2 reasons:
1. many decks which would fit flashhulk combos aren't on a level of optimization where you can rely on this combo
2. there are enough "sane" people around at the kitchen tables that are still able to realzie that flash hulk is a kinda straight route to victory, but not a enjoyable one.

The argument that the cEDH community could split from EDH and make their own format is also very difficult for me. On the first look, yes, it would solve the problem since they could make a seperate ban list and add problematic cards for the competetive sector to the ban list. but the big problem for me is a different one: where will be the line between those 2? you could still make a deck where most people would agree that it's more likely a cEDH deck but you declare it as EDH deck and vice versa. unless the deck contains a deck  that is only allowed in (c)EDH, it will be pure subjective to decide where the deck belongs.

For Paradox Engine (that got mentioned some times): I personally don't like the ban. But as far as I've got it, they haven't banned it because it became a (potent) win con. They have banned it because people at the kitchen tables used PE in order to generate alot of long but finite turns without finishing off. I've seen 20-30 minute turns (with and without PE), so I can agree with the RC that waiting for this stuff can be very unfun, especially if it happends multiple times in a row.
So unless I'm wrong here (please correct me if I am), keep this in mind if you want to use the PE ban as argument.

[WizardSpartan]

2. there are enough "sane" people around at the kitchen tables that are still able to realzie that flash hulk is a kinda straight route to victory, but not a enjoyable one.

This is almost exclusively the reason I don't play cEDH (not that anyone was wondering lol). I would think that a combo that is so potent, quick, and hard to deal with, people would get bored, but apparently not.

For Paradox Engine (that got mentioned some times): I personally don't like the ban. But as far as I've got it, they haven't banned it because it became a (potent) win con. They have banned it because people at the kitchen tables used PE in order to generate alot of long but finite turns without finishing off. I've seen 20-30 minute turns (with and without PE), so I can agree with the RC that waiting for this stuff can be very unfun, especially if it happends multiple times in a row.
So unless I'm wrong here (please correct me if I am), keep this in mind if you want to use the PE ban as argument.

I think Judas made a very important distinction. All of you are discussing how Paradox Engine wasn't top tier in cEDH and how it didn't deserve a ban, but it's the perfect trap card for casual playgroups. It is very powerful and can generate lots of non-infinite mana. Like Judas said, this leads to long turns where one player is just slogging through lots of cards and mana without necessarily winning. That is unfun, and that is why the RC banned Engine. Not because of its presence in cEDH.

[Morganator 2.0]

Aaannnddd... We're done here for a bit.

[Morganator 2.0]

Some of you are probably wondering why this topic was locked out of the blue.

More than a few times throughout this thread, fights had broken out. Locking the topic would give everyone some time to cool down, and also prevented more fights from breaking out.

The straw that broke the camel's back was a post made by Soren841. It was an offensive post against another user, after I had already given a few warnings throughout this thread. I managed to see it 20 minutes after it was initially posted, and promptly deleted it. The comment itself did not add to the discussion, it was just ad hominem.

As a result, Soren841 has been suspended for 24 hours.

I'll say it again: Do not make personal attacks against other people. That goes for everyone. Argument is a part of discussion, and is to be expected on a forum site. Insulting individuals, mocking groups of people, or making snide remarks are not necessary, and just cause unhealthy discussion.

The topic is now unlocked. I'm not entirely sure why, but cEDH topics tend to breed a lot of spite. You may continue discussing the potential bans/lack thereof, on the condition that you do so in a respectful manner, and do not intentionally say demeaning things.

I'm not giving any more warnings on this thread, there will just be consequences.

[WizardSpartan]

I dunno if its just me, but I'm sorta tired of this whole discussion. We're just going in circles and I feel like nothing's getting done. For some reason, I think a lot of people here just aren't interested in anybody else's opinion (I'm not naming names), they just want to voice their own. Personally, my opinion has changed multiple times throughout this discussion, so I would love it to continue, I just don't know what else there is to say on my part at least.

[Spinsane]

As a non-competitive player, I might have a skewed view of the debate, but I was under the impression that the whole point of Competitive game play was to come up with the best and most consistent winning strategy. Asking for players to auto-regulate and tone their decks down "because that's in the spirit of the format" seems to miss the point of what the term Competitive stands for...

[CleanBelwas]

As a non-competitive player, I might have a skewed view of the debate, but I was under the impression that the whole point of Competitive game play was to come up with the best and most consistent winning strategy. Asking for players to auto-regulate and tone their decks down "because that's in the spirit of the format" seems to miss the point of what the term Competitive stands for...

You're right, and that's kind of where the issue arises.

For pretty much every other format, bans are put in place with competitive play at the forefront of the decision, but that is not the case for EDH.

EDH was born as a casual format, and those in charge want to keep it that way. They are not interested in explicitly supporting cEDH as a format and have regularly stated that self policing is their recommended solution. They ban with a view to the "spirit of the format". It's a unique format in that respect, and that doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon. Their decision to ban cards tends to lean towards cards that generate a state of the game that is not fun for every one involved (Paradox Engine was banned because it would often lead to games where players would take excessively long turns but still not close out the game. Iona was banned because it was easy to completely hose anyone who was in a mono coloured deck).

Now of course, not everyone will agree with these sentiments. Many people think Paradox Engine is fine. But the RC for EDH have even gone so far as to say that individual playgroups are welcome to ignore those bans if all participants are happy with it.

With all this in mind, I am personally of the opinion that it is good to have a ban list in place as this makes it a lot easier for players who go to events and regularly play with strangers etc., but the philosophy should be good enough for those who have regular play groups.

If you don't like flash and think it should be banned, don't play it.

If there are other cards and combos that you think are ban worthy, don't play them.

If you want to play Coalition Victory and every one else is cool with it, go nuts.

Ultimately, EDH belongs to those who created it and they get the final say. You wouldn't ask Picasso to paint realistic portraits. You wouldn't tell Robert Plant to stop wailing. When someone makes something for your consumption/enjoyment, you have the choice to consume and enjoy it or to leave it alone.

I personally think that the RC for EDH should be commended for committing to their original idea of EDH being casual and not being swayed by loud voices, while explicitly offering and even recommending self policing as an option for those who want to play it differently.

The only time the ban list matters is when people are playing with new pods or groups, most likely at an event or similar. For these situations, it is important to have a ban list. Given that the RC aren't budging on their ban philosophy (nor should they in my opinion), I think what the format really needs is an emphasis on communication. We are starting to see this more, especially with many of the biggest MTG and EDH content creators creating content aimed at helping people discuss deck power levels and the like, and I think more of this is only a good thing.

I get why people like having rules in place and a ban list and all that good stuff. It stops people taking the piss. But ultimately we're all people looking to have fun with one of our hobbies. We should be able to take to each other to make sure we're all going to have fun in the same way.

Those are my thoughts anyway. Please all feel free to rip my arguments to shreds.

[Morganator 2.0]

No no, you make a good point.

You need ground rules for when you go out to an event night/tournament. This is the banlist. The cards I know I'm not allowed to use. Time Vault is crazy powerful. Paradox Engine led to long turns. Worldfire is just irritating. Library of Alexandria is...

Actually I'm not sure why that one's on there.

Rule zero however is for the social contract. Among friends, like-minded individuals. It does not work in large groups.

Case in point, there's an online cEDH tournament coming up through Cockatrice. Currently the opinions are split between "Great, this will show that Flash needs to be banned!" and "I'm not joining unless Flash is banned". With Commander growing as a format, it has moved way outside of just small groups playing together, and the banlist is needed more than rule 0.

[CleanBelwas]

Case in point, there's an online cEDH tournament coming up through Cockatrice. Currently the opinions are split between "Great, this will show that Flash needs to be banned!" and "I'm not joining unless Flash is banned". With Commander growing as a format, it has moved way outside of just small groups playing together, and the banlist is needed more than rule 0.

I think this is the issue though. The RC doesn't care about cEDH enough. It's not their vision for the format they created. They don't see flash as an issue as it doesn't crop up in too many casual circles.

I see it as the equivalent of someone making you a delicious cake and you saying either

"Thank you very much, that looks delicious. I would love a piece"
    or
"Thanks, but I'm not really a fan of [insert ingredient here] so I'll pass".

You wouldn't say to the baker "Actually I don't like [named ingredient] so can you go and make a new cake without it please".

Ultimately, the RC want EDH to be casual with an emphasis on self policing and that means that there is always potential for cards that aren't prevalent in casual circles warping that format for those who are choosing to play it differently. It's their cake and they will bake it however they choose. The rest of us are left to enjoy it or eat cookies instead. The end result is at the disposal of the creator.

All of that said, from a business perspective there is a strong argument for listening to your customers. Banning flash would appease many people and piss off pretty much no one (apart from a few people who have no doubt foiled out a sick Flash/Hulk combo deck), and almost certainly not the casuals who the format is supposed to be for.

It seems to me that the RC have taken the stance of "If you want to play competitively, there are plenty of formats to do that in" and I kind of respect that.

I don't think this issue can be resolved without a fundamental change to the philosophy of EDH, and I don't think that will happen. They don't see it that the banlist is needed more than rule 0, and it's their call to make.

Also, I'm totally with you. I think Library is fine. But I'm not very good at Magic so I can't say that with any confidence that it can't be broken and I have a very strange idea of what fun is so I can't comment on it's ban from that perspective either.