cEDH ban speculations

[WizardSpartan]

Wizards (supposedly) playtests cards to ensure that they are balanced right. When players use cards in different ways than Wizards playtested them, those cards may be unbalanced in the meta. That's what I'm trying to say.
I can agree that Paradox Engine may not be super necessary as a ban, as it is a 5 mana artifact, but I think it would be odd to unban it so soon after banning it.

[Morganator 2.0]

Let's break down this association fallacy.

• Every cEDH deck wants rocks
• Every deck with rocks wants Paradox Engine
• Therefore every deck wants Paradox Engine

The second bullet is the flawed one. Not every deck with mana rocks wants Paradox Engine. You also need repeatable card advantage. In order for this to work in cEDH (as opposed to casual) you needed a commander that could provide this. In any other deck Paradox Engine was a dead card at 5 mana. Captain Sisay and Arcum Dagsson were the two that ran Paradox Engine. Urza, Lord High Artificer used it for about a month, which is why most people forget about him.

I know this because I have been playing cEDH since before Paradox was spoiled. There were other fringe decks that used it (Keranos, Yidris sometimes) but it's restrictive mana cost and required card advantage caused it to be cut from most lists.

In casual Commander it was a late-game win-con. I didn't think it was a problem (games have to end at some point) but it was Sheldon that made the call, and it's hard to understand how somehow who takes emotional harm from Wound Reflection thinks.

No, I will not let that go.

[Soren841]

Paradox Engine is only really good in Sisay, Arcum, and Urza. It's good in Paradox Scepter but not as good. No other deck even wants to play the card. The only reason it would be odd for them to unban it is because the RC doesn't make a habit of admitting its mistakes

[Marshstepper78]

Nyxbloom Ancient is really cool and all, but he doesn't warrant even being considered for a ban. There are so many ways to get infinite mana that another one seems pretty inconsequential. On top of it, he dies to removal. I don't understand the hysteria surrounding this card.

[Soren841]

The hysteria is from people who think Vorinclex should be banned

[Red_Wyrm]

It's hard to understand how somehow who takes emotional harm from Wound Reflection thinks.

Wait, did he actually say this?

I haven't read all the articles concerning the topic, and I am not trying to spread wrong information, but, from my understanding, Paradox Engine was banned because it made pretty much EVERY casual deck better (I know this argument can be made for Sol Ring. That is another topic). Tap 4 mana, cast a 1 mana spell, ramp 3 mana? That is a Gilded Lotus without the restriction of "any one color." Sure it costs, a card, but it is still powerful. It  was a card that when you don't know what to tutor for, you could almost never go wrong tutoring for Paradox Engine. Similarly, flash hasn't been banned because it is such a small part of the EDH community.

cEDH is almost an entirely different format from EDH. I don't see why everyone on the subreddit and tapped out don't just make their own ban list for what is essentially their format, wouldn't that pretty much solve everything? You can keep Paradox Engine in cEDH while keeping it banned in EDH.

The hysteria is from people who think Vorinclex should be banned

I think the people that want Vorinclex banned are the same that wanted Iona banned. No fun to play against, not necessarily because of the double mana but when you really think about it, how often is it a problem?

[Soren841]

Because if u make ur own banlist it isn't cEDH because it's not EDH anymore.

[Morganator 2.0]

First off, yes, he did more or less say that. His article titled "Commander Cards you Shouldn't Play" has since disappeared from the Star City Games website but his words were "Wound Reflection is a card that takes players out of the game emotionally."

While making a custom cEDH banlist is a good idea (one that I support) the issue is implementing it. When you go to Commander night at a game shop, it's safe to assume that everyone will be using the same banlist. Two different lists will just cause confusion. We already kind of get that with the multiplayer and 1 v 1 banlists.

What I would like to see is some concerted effort from the cEDH community to get at least Flash banned. That article GolgariFTW posted makes a very good argument. If enough people could get their voice out, we might be able to sway the Rules Committee to make a change.

I don't have enough influence in the cEDH community to initiate something like this, but I'd still like to see it happen.

[Red_Wyrm]

I can see how it would be difficult to implement such a thing. And getting people to agree on what is/isn't banned will be hard without having a dedicated rules committee for cEDH like they do for EDH. I have another question though. If something like flash is universally disliked because of what it does, why don't people just stop playing with it? If someone builds a deck that I, nor no one else in my playgroup can beat, or is very very hard to beat, we eventually say, "You're playing ~? Okay, I'm sitting this one out." Why can't this happen across the entire cEDH community? I understand some people just want the best deck, which seems to be flash hulk, but after playing against an opponent once or twice, you know what the deck is trying to do, you know if it is a flash hulk deck. Simply say we are not doing flash hulk in this pod.

I don't have enough influence in the cEDH community to initiate something like this.

Honest question: Who does? Is there like a spokes person for the cEDH community? Someone on the rules committee that is a representative of cEDH?

[Soren841]

There are a few people, most of them are on TappedOut. A couple of them are honestly assholes.

[CleanBelwas]

I think Red_Wyrm has identified an important point.

EDH is a format that is rife with "unspoken rules". Mass Land Destruction is a bit of a taboo so most people tend to avoid it. It's not officially banned and certain people will still include it if it plays into the strategy of their best deck, but it already has the reputation where people will agree to play with it or choose to sit out.

I think it's not out of the question for the same attitude to be developed for the most powerful or degenerate combos. With enough people talking about it and getting involved in the discussion, the same thing has the potential to be achieved.

Also, to throw in my two cents about a separate ban list, I think separate ban lists would be fine. I actually think the segregation and division into two formats would be fine too. EDH is popular because a lot of people want a way to play their old cards that they enjoy from yesteryear and get together with their friends and hang out. It's mostly a casual format and most of the cards on the ban list reflect that. They are cards that take the fun out.

There are also those who want to take the format to it's limit and see what powerful decks and combos can be made, understandably so. 4 player 100 card singleton is an interesting puzzle to solve in terms of resilience and consistency for a deck. I get why people love it.

The problem is that the list of cards that stop the casual players having fun and the list of cards that stop the competitive players from dissolving into a "solved" format isn't the same. The two communities want very different things. Would it be the worst thing in the world to give it to them?

Also, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you Soren. I don't think that creating a separate ban list stops it being EDH. It's still 100 card singleton with a commander and a colour identity and all that good stuff. I think it actually goes a huge way towards fixing one of the current issues with the format of deck power level assessment and giving the competitive vs casual communities the disparity that they need.

I don't believe that not changing something that is flawed because it "stops being what it was" is ever a good idea. We shouldn't be afraid to try and make changes for the sake of improvement. Equally, we shouldn't be afraid to admit if it didn't work and revert back to how it was before (Free the Engine), but that's an entirely different story.

[Aetherium Slinky]

Since I'm not well versed in cEDH but I'm still curious: what would happen if they banned both Flash and Hulk? They're both problematic cards on their own - just in different ways.

Also you've convinced me that Engine needs to come back. My friend plays it in a casual deck and it's actually just another win condition and I can accept that. Playing with Engine doesn't take forever, it's just another combo piece.

[Judaspriester]

Hey,

first of all, the initial card, Thassa's Oracle. I understand why some people compare it with cards like Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact. But I disagree about the strenght, at least for cEDH. The latter ones allow you to dig through your whole library. The Oracle on the other hand allows you only to dig X deep, where X is your devotion. Devotion means you'll need some board presence. That's nothing you usually build up in cEDH until turn 3-4 out of nowhere.
I'm pretty sure you'll find a example deck that proves me wrong here, but I don't think those decks would need the oracle, since they can do much more troublesome stuff than it.
For the comparison with the lab maniac, I wouldn't call it a better version. Pro: the Oracle is cheaper and digs by itself Con: You only win the game if you empty your libary with the oracle. Misscalculate here or play it to early, and this won't work anymore. The Maniac on the other hand still works a turn after he's been played (if he doesn't get removed ofc.).

About Paradox Engine: Correct me please if I'm wrong, but afaik the reason why they banned it isn't that it's superior in cEDH with Sisay. It has become banned because the "kitchentable" players used it to generate alot of very long turns without finishing the game. That's just something unfun to play against. Imagine a player that plays 3 extra turns and you have to sit there and wait until he's done, because he still won't be able to finish at his turn 4 in a row. That's just boring.
For me it's sad that it has become banned, but my plan was (like they did in cEDH) to use it as wincon, in stead of extending my turns until next year.

For the Flash Hulk combo.. Well.. it's difficult. at least for me, both cards by itself are okay. they allow strong plays and kick off powerful combos, but you usually can do something against them. The real problem is the combined power along with combos that work completly on instant speed. For me, a important part of magic is the ability for interaction. But these combos basicly disallow them.

[Aetherium Slinky]

@Judaspriester

The Oracle saves a card from a combo/is cheaper than Labman-Jace and is immune to removal. Labman needs an additional draw (+ one card to the combo), Jace is more expensive and vulnerable to removal because it needs to be on the board when its ability resolves.

Oracle on the other hand only needs to enter: note how its ETB says the part "equal to" devotion. If you have zero cards in your deck and your devotion is zero (=Oracle got removed) you still win.

These are the reasons why the new card is much, much stronger than previous Labmans.

[Danky]

You have 1/9th the karma as you do posts. It seems as though no one cares to discuss anything with you at all. Still salty his favorite card was banned. But I guess you know better than they do.

At my LGS there was a vote on if it should be banned.
1 Person voted no. Out of over thirty votes.
He owned multiple copies.

We are all wrong, too, I guess.

The format is better without it. Period.