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Author Topic: cEDH ban speculations  (Read 8118 times)

Aetherium Slinky

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2020, 02:06:59 pm »
Soren is a little rough around the edges but they are pretty educated on the topic of cEDH. I suggest we drop this and focus on the ban discussion.
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Danky

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2020, 02:14:17 pm »
Agreed on both accounts.

robort

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2020, 03:08:53 pm »
Let's start from the beginning. First they unban Hulk which then leads to problematic with Flash. So to deal with this problem they'd either ban 1 or the other or both cards. Rebanning Hulk would lead to the "we made a mistake by unbanning Hulk" and with Sheldon's Ego I don't think that ever happen.

Banning Oracle already before it even comes out into play? Granted it turns into I win more for the mill yourself decks but let it run it's course first before yelling ban ban ban.

Paradox conundrum: This runs into the thought process "it needs to be in every X deck" reminds me of Seedborn Muse in every green deck and Smothering Tithe in every white deck. Granted they are all nice cards but not necessary for every deck specified. Or as Josh Lee Kuai's favorite to say is "Vedalken Orrery" needs to be in every deck. Then you also have the every deck needs a Sol Ring. The point is that Paradox was mashed into every deck no matter what because of the thought process. Just need to undo/unthink this type of process and agree it should be unbanned but that will never happen.

As for Oracle, it just another I win more type of card. I say let them win more. I have that option of not playing against that type of deck and our playgroup at our LGS does a pretty good job of monitoring such a thing. There are like 12-20 of us on any single day of Thursday/Saturday/Sunday that communicate very well with each other. We don't stop you from playing whatever deck you wish to play but if it becomes the deck you use consistently then we don't allow that. So yes bring out the oppressive, the combo, the I win more deck. But if that is the only type of deck you ever play. We just won't play against you very often.

Nyxbloom Ancient Conundrum: It's a creature which is so easy to remove or counter especially since it is a 7 drop and this is going to the "it should be put in every green deck". Again a nice card but not going to be necessary in every deck or even close to being ban worthy.

Separate Ban Conundrum: First segregating Cedh from Casual EDH will be a bad thing. EDH is a whole entity not 2 separate entities. 2nd for giggles lets say you do have 2 separate ban lists. Who will determine what is a casual deck and what is a Cedh deck? If not then could I run a Cedh deck with a different ban list against Casual EDH that also have a different ban list? Could I then also say my deck is casual but in reality it could be Cedh? Could I then call the deck Cedh when in reality it could be Casual? Could the deck be actually both Cedh and Casual? Sitting on the fence and can go in either direction? The point is that 1 list works for 1 Entity.

As for Sheldon Being Butthurt. Yes he sure was, in a way I wish I was there to witness it.

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Judaspriester

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2020, 03:22:08 pm »
You have 1/9th the karma as you do posts. It seems as though no one cares to discuss anything with you at all. Still salty his favorite card was banned. But I guess you know better than they do.

At my LGS there was a vote on if it should be banned.
1 Person voted no. Out of over thirty votes.
He owned multiple copies.

We are all wrong, too, I guess.

The format is better without it. Period.

Comes from a new guy who already made a negative karma. *slow clap*

Besides that, read a little closer what I've wrote. I haven't judged their decision, I've just wrote what I think. I don't like to insult people because they have a different opinion than mine. And the "please correct me if I'm wrong" wasn't a empty phrase. That's what I remembered from the paradox ban as the official reason. If I remembered wrong here, I've got no problems with correcting myself.
And please do me a favour and explain me why I should be still "salty" because of my favorite card banned. I've just said it's sad, but that's all. The engine wasn't even a favorite of mine and wasn't that present in my decks at the time it got banned.

Hmm.. I'm slowly asking myself, why I write this whole stuff, you've got 6 posts here right now, and not even in a single one you've tried to bring some arguments for your opinion.


@MustaKota
I've just said that it's, in my opinion, not that much better, and I've wrote the pro and con for the new card. For the typical labman combos, you've got a mana and a draw engine, draw your whole library and play the labman in between. unless you need to need to resolve the stack in between, you can just ignore alot of possible interactions.
What makes the Oracle interesting is that she drops some cards from the library as ETB. This means you can't just play a removal on her to stop the combo. But you still need to empty your library enough so that the devotion is high enough for the win. This means the other players could for example remove other of your cards in order to reduce your devotion. And if the initial ETB fails, you can't use her anymore unless you've got some stuff to make her etb trigger again (flicker etc.). This is far from impossible, but again requires additional cards.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to say the Oracle is bad, I personally just don't think it's THAT much better than the alternatives.

@robort about EDH vs cEDH you're somewhat right. It isn't that easy to seperate here. It's somewhat like in alot of other games, different abilities/cards/champions/whatever do a entirely different job on different powerlevels. For example at League of Legends, I remember times where Akali was feared around Silver Elo, but at Platin+ she was next to never played.
Because of this, I often mention that I talk from my kitchen table experience, so that others got a rough idea of my perspective. That's also the reason why I usually don't write comments for 1k %u20AC+ decks, becuase on that powerlevel, I usually don't care and therefore don't know that much about 20%u20AC+ cards.

/edit: I've just discussed with a friend about the Oracle and at one point I have to agree with him: for Doomsday she's better than Labman.

Btw @Danky, maybe calculate again, 382/1299 is a little more than 1/9 or 11% ;)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 03:47:21 pm by Judaspriester »
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CleanBelwas

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2020, 04:24:50 pm »
I've been thinking about this all day. So far where I am is:

Why do cards get banned?

When they warp the established meta to the point where almost all decks are playing them or playing to beat them.

What defines the meta?

The top tier decks that place consistently across organised play.

This is where I think EDH struggles. The absence of organised play (outside of what independents organise themselves) means there is no real meta to work from. A meta basically comes down to local play groups and LGS's.

In formats where there is organised play, the ban list is shaped by that and all the casuals either follow it or ignore it.

cEDH has more of an established meta, but ultimately it doesn't mean anything without that incentive of organised play. If people disagree with the ban list, they can just choose to ignore it in their groups.

Other formats ban according to the top tier and everything else is secondary. EDH bans according to a few peoples personal opinion on what is or is not fun to play.

Maybe an answer would be featuring EDH in organised tournaments with prizes and status and what not. That way we work off that meta for the ban list and the casuals continue to do what they like. cEDH becomes the meta for the ban list and casuals just ignore it or do their best.

Obviously given Wizards recent changes to organised play this is just pie in the sky nonsense. But I think a lack of global meta means there is a lack of focus when deciding what to ban.

Also, there are very few cards that are ban worthy on their own. They all require the rest of the deck around them to make them degenerate. Neither flash nor hulk are too much by themselves. I feel that the lack of a global established meta makes any argument for or against banning these or anything nothing more than personal opinion. It just doesn't mean anything.

Slyvester12

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2020, 04:29:47 pm »
I think the obvious answer would be to have cEDH players act in concert to straight dumpster every casual pod with flash hulk until the RC decides it's "not fun" enough to ban something.

P.S. Yes, I'm joking. Please spare me your wrath.
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WizardSpartan

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2020, 04:59:33 pm »
You have 1/9th the karma as you do posts. It seems as though no one cares to discuss anything with you at all.
Yeahhh I'm gonna have to tell you that you don't want to go down this road. We all have different opinions, and I don't think everybody is absolutely right. That's what makes what we are saying opinions. Don't get insulting.

I'm not really that experienced overall with cEDH, so it feels like any of my opinions are wrong in some way. I think I've said all that I really need to say, especially since I'm not even sure what deserves a ban besides something needs a ban.

Soren841

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2020, 05:28:59 pm »
He's looking at Oracle BECAUSE of Flash Hulk. I think you guys are missing why it's potentially bannable. It creates a Protean Hulk pile that is literally impossible to interact with.

We can't create a separate banlist because that isn't what the community wants
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Morganator 2.0

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2020, 07:00:08 pm »
I think I need to explain the Fish Hulk line.

Flash->Protean Hulk, getting Spellseeker, Thassa's Oracle, and Blood Pet. Resolve Spellseeker's trigger first, then the Oracle's. Spellseeker searches for Demonic Consultation (or Tainted Pact). In response to the Oracle trigger, sacrifice Blood Pet and cast Demonic Consultation. Name a card that isn't in your deck. Your entire library gets exiled, and you win when the Oracle's trigger resolves.

Notice how there aren't many options outside of counterspells that stop this combo. Also: no dead cards. Whereas most Flash Hulk combos have at least a few dead cards (Narcomoeba, Nomads En-Kor) every card in this combo has use outside of combo turn.

I don't think Thassa's Oracle is a problem outside of Flash Hulk, although I am trying to do something with Doomsday. It really is just Flash that's the problem.

Red_Wyrm

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2020, 07:56:50 pm »
Wow. That is extremely powerful. Thank you, Morganator, for spelling it out for us slower folks. It does kind of seem to force every deck to either run blue or torpor orb effects, which can easily be taken care of via nature's claim.

And my god, I go to bed, wake up and there are 15 damn replies to read. But I always enjoy reading these conversations, so I can't complain too much.

Again though, it looks like the problem is not Thassa's Oracle, but Flash. If you can fairly ramp into 7 mana and get hulk in play and kill him, then you've earned the win.

Quote
I am trying to do something with Doomsday.
Doomsday putting Future Sight on top and Thassa's Oracle next. Cast the oracle from your top as Future Sight allows, and your devotion to blue is at least 5 at that point and number of cards in library is 3. I feel like it would require some hammering out the fine points, but I don't see why it couldn't work.
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Judaspriester

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2020, 08:04:10 pm »
Quote
I am trying to do something with Doomsday.
Doomsday putting Future Sight on top and Thassa's Oracle next. Cast the oracle from your top as Future Sight allows, and your devotion to blue is at least 5 at that point and number of cards in library is 3. I feel like it would require some hammering out the fine points, but I don't see why it couldn't work.

It's even easier. Doomsday, Fblthp, the Lost, Thassa's Oracle, done. This way you need only 4 mana after doomsday in stead of 7 and you only need 3xU instead of 5xU. This means you can kick it off earlier or have more mana open for counterspells
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Soren841

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2020, 08:17:28 pm »
Morganator that isn't the main pile. It's Grand Abolisher, Cephalid Illusionist, Nomads en-Kor, and a 1 drop. U mill ur deck, flashback Dread Return to reanimate Thassa's Oracle and win. The one you spelled out is one of the instant speed lines
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 08:20:26 pm by Soren841 »
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WizardSpartan

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2020, 08:41:38 pm »
Wouldn't the line that Morganator described be objectively better, as there are less dead cards, it's harder to disrupt, and it operates at instant speed? I'm curious, why would the line Soren841 described be better?
I think Red_Wyrm described the situation well, though. Flash allows a player to bypass too many of the hoops of getting Protean Hulk work.
Who thinks that just Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact is too good on its own?

Morganator 2.0

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2020, 08:46:20 pm »
The line Soren described is harder to disrupt thanks to Grand Abolisher.

Soren841

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Re: cEDH ban speculations
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2020, 08:48:34 pm »
It's impossible to disrupt after the Hulk trigger resolves. Flash is definitely the problem. Pact, Consultation, Oracle, Doomsday, Paradox, Hulk, Ad Naus.. all of these are very similar in strength and are not format warping on their own. If we ban Flash and unban Paradox, those will all be played about the same amount, along with stax decks. That's a LOT of diversity, especially compared to the current meta.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 08:50:39 pm by Soren841 »
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