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Author Topic: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill  (Read 595 times)

Rooker

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Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill
« on: January 15, 2020, 07:39:29 pm »
It has been pointed out that Mox Amber is a legendary card. I'm stupid. This whole thing doesn't work. It's still a decent read, though.

I have gotten a solution! It isn't optimized. You could easily deal infinite damage on the first turn, but making a massive non-infinite combo is much more comedic and involves some fun math, which I am a fan of. ;D

Opening Hand:
1 Island
4 Mox Amber
1 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
1 Paradoxical Outcome

You play 4 Mox Amber, then an Island allowing you to play Emry, Lurker of the Loch, allowing you to use the Mox Amber to play Paradoxical Outcome. Pull all of the Mox Amber back into your hand and draw four extra cards.

First Draw:
1 Cloudform
1 Essence Flux
1 Anointed Procession
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
Card on Top of Deck:
1 Omniscience

Play all of your Mox Amber, and tap it for Cloudform, then Essence Flux on the manifested card. Omniscience is flipped face-up when exiled (that is a special rule for manifested cards), and since it is not an instant or sorcery, it is still a legal target to return to the battlefield. You've got an Anointed Procession (I'm not sure what that'll do yet... ??? ) and a Dragonlord's Prerogative that you now play.

Four Cards and Omniscience on the Field:
3 Anointed Procession
1 Paradoxical Outcome

Now we play 3 Anointed Procession, which means that any tokens we create will now actually be 16 tokens. Play Paradoxical Outcome and return all cards to your hand except Omniscience, and play them all again for free! (You also draw an extra 9 cards)

You see where this is going:
4 Mirror March
4 Hornet Nest
1 Paradoxical Outcome

This next round is like the last. Each Hornet Nest on average will produce 16 more (the math involved involves and infinite sum for those of you who are math nerds), so we now have (on average) 80 Hornet Nests. We'll use Paradoxical Results to pull everything back and play it again, giving us (on average) 156 Hornet Nests and 17 more cards. (From now on, I will ignore mentioning that these are averages. Your thumb should be very tired from coin flipping by the end of this.)

Let's make some tokens:
1 Angrath's Mauraders
1 Star of Extinction

We now draw a Star of Extinction and are happy to realize that you can destroy our own Island with it. Let's nuke those 156 Hornet Nests :'( and produce 99,840 little Insect tokens :o . Too bad they don't have haste. Let's look at the other 15 cards we drew.

Speaking of Hornets:
4 Panharmonicon
1 Naban, Dean of Iteration
1 Arcane Adaptation
4 Spark Double
4 Hornet Queen
1 Enter the Infinite

Okay. Panharmonicon will not only trigger Hornet Queen's ability multiple times, but Mirror March's, too. Then add Naban, Dean of Iteration with Arcane Adaptation as another Panharmonicon (his clones all kill themselves in a a tragedy that will make world news :'( ). Then, Spark Double copying Naban is going to make things go pretty crazy. The first one should create 384 tokens, meaning that now whenever a creature enters the battlefield, it triggers everything 391 times. The next Spark Double will turn that into 25,415, the next into 1,651,975, and the last into 107,378,375. (From now on, I'll just call that value 107 million to save time.)

Now we play Hornet Queen. Each one triggers a Mirror March 429,513,500 times, and each of those is going to create 16 tokens, giving us a total of 6,872,216,004 Hornet Queens, each creating 64 tokens 107 million times, giving us a total of about 47 quintillion (47,227,352,800,000,000,000) Insect tokens. Paradoxical Results was fun and all, but let's draw 24 cards with Enter the Infinite (put one back) to get into the last phase of this one-turn kill. 8)

Let's double things:
4 Second Harvest
4 Twinflame
4 Repeated Reverberation
4 Clone Legion

Now we'll take those 47 quintillion Insects and double them 8 times with Second Harvest and Twinflame (yes, you are able to target all of them with Twinflame because it is part of the mana cost). However, each time you double them, you actually multiply them by 17 thanks to Anointed Procession, so we end up with about 33 octillion tokens.

Repeated Reverberation played 4 times helps us to play Clone Legion 15 times on the first one, and 18 times total. Skipping the math, we have 4.63 sexdecillion tokens (thank you Cookie Clicker for helping me know these numbers). To help you visualize that number, it looks like this:
4,633,034,760,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 :)

We still have 7 cards in our hand, 4 mystery cards that Emry, Lurker of the Loch put into our graveyard, and 1 card in out library to work with. Let's see how big these numbers can get!

You thought that Naban was bad:
1 Melek, Izzet Paragon
4 Displace
1 Mirrorwing Dragon
1 Clear the Mind

Now we play Melek, Izzet Paragon (millions of clones kill themselves; press "f" to pay respects). We need a way to clone him, though, so we Displace two of our Spark Double and have them come in, creating just about 55 billion copies of Melek, Izzet Paragon. We then play Mirrorwing Dragon and Clear the Mind, putting a lot of fun cards into our library for Melek to use (including 4 new ones we haven't seen yet). We also draw a mystery card that will be revealed later.

Playing cards from the top of our deck:
1 Essence Flux
4 Displace
4 Twinflame
4 Second Harvest
3 Clone Legion
4 Repeated Reverberation
1 Clone Legion

We are now going to clone things again, but this time, a lot more. We use Essence Flux (which gets copied 55 billion times) to resummon a Spark Double a bunch of times and create 377 quintillion (377,971,880,000,000,000,000) copies of Spark Double. Then repeat that process with 4 copies of Displace to give us 133 Novdecillion copies of Melek, Izzet Paragon (that's 133 followed by 59 zeroes).

Now let's play Twinflame targeting our 133 Novdecillion creatures and multiplying them by 17 (for estimating purposes, we will assume that it just multiplies our total by 10 instead), then repeat that process 133 Novdecillion times. That gives us a finishing total of about a 1 followed by 133 Novdecillion zeroes. The next one gives us about a 1 followed by (a 1 followed by 133 Novdecillion zeroes) zeroes. This process continued up to Repeated Reverberation gives us as a very low estimate:
10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10)))))))))))) copies of Melek, Izzet Paragon.

At this point, the number is incomprehensively huge. We need more tokens than there are estimated atoms in the universe. However, it's still going to get bigger, so I will now refer to each time that I say "10^(...)" as exponizing it. So, the number of tokens we have currently is exponized 13. Exponized 1 is 10. Exponized 2 is 1 followed by 10 zeroes (10 billion). Exponized 3 is 1 followed by 10 billion zeroes (we have now passed google, a famous number). Exponized 4 is 1 followed by that many zeroes. Repeat that process 9 more times, and it gets huge. Really huge.

Let's try Repeated Reverberation now. Each 4 Repeated Reverberations cast will lead to an extra digit in the number of times the spell played after it will be cast (it's actually some number more like 3.3, but we're just doing a low estimate now). So, when we cast (exponized 13)/4 copies of Repeated Reverberation, we can estimate that we are going to cast exponized 13 extra copies of Clone Legion, which actually just is going to copy it as much as all of those Meleks, so it doesn't make a huge difference. We now have exponized 14 token creatures sitting around.

The other four cards:
1 Breaking //Entering
1 Might of Masses
1 Polymorphous Rush
1 Lose Calm

Making that number bigger is actually starting to get boring, so let's look at the new, interesting cards we got. First, we cast a bunch of copies of Breaking // Entering. Our opponent would need a deck larger than our almost infinitely-large stack of tokens we brought with us to the kitchen table. You also can steal any creatures that they dumped from their graveyard and copy them over a googleplex times with haste. However, because our opponent might have a Leyline of Sanctitiy, so we need a backup plan.

We have three different cards that will make our army have massive attack power, have haste, and all be a copy of target creature we control (we would use Mirrorwing Drake to make Might of the Masses stronger). However, what creature should we transform our army into, and what about that last card we drew? ???

The Secret Strategy:
1 Biovisionary

That's right. Biovisionary is our secret weapon. As you read his ability, you should note that in this case, we fall under the "or more" category, and are able to win the game this end step. We use Polymorphous Rush to turn our whole army into Biovisionary and will win the game this end step. However, that is a one-turn win, not a one-turn kill, so we first put Lose Calm and Might of Masses on the stack (actually, a very large number of each of those cards for each creature you control), targeting everything via Mirrorwing Drake, then turn everything into copies of Biovisionary, who will all receive the buffs.

Let us step back and imagine that inside of each atom of the universe, there was actually another universe with it's own little atoms. Then, inside of each of those atoms, there was another, even smaller universe with it's own atoms. We are playing a game against each one of these miniscule atoms, of which there are an incredible number. It will forever be recorded in history as the most massive game of MTG ever played; however, we will now be remembered as the jerks who ruined it by swinging at each opponent with thousands of thousands of creatures, each able to overkill a player zillions of times over, ending the game before anyone else got to take a turn.

And we never went infinite. 8)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 06:21:08 pm by Rooker »

terminalgeek

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill (Solved It)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2020, 05:09:49 pm »
Mox Amber is legendary, so you won't be able to have all four on the board when you cast Emry.

WWolfe

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill (Solved It)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2020, 07:53:59 pm »
Mox Amber is legendary, so you won't be able to have all four on the board when you cast Emry.

Beat me to it.
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Rooker

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill (Solved It)
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2020, 06:30:04 pm »
Mox Amber is legendary, so you won't be able to have all four on the board when you cast Emry.

I'm not sure I know the legendary rule works, but if we went second and had Leyline of Anticipation in our opening hand, would it work to play everything at instant speed before they are sacrificed?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 06:32:36 pm by Rooker »

WWolfe

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill (Solved It)
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2020, 06:34:11 pm »
Mox Amber is legendary, so you won't be able to have all four on the board when you cast Emry.

I'm not sure I know the legendary rule works, but if we went second and had Leyline of Anticipation in our opening hand, would it work to play everything at instant speed before they are sacrificed?

It wouldn't matter, as soon as the second one hit the field you would have to sacrifice one so you would never have two on the field to cast Emry.
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terminalgeek

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2020, 07:26:24 pm »
At best you could play one Mox Amber, float the mana, play the next one, sack the old one, etc. but that would require a blue legendary on the field already.

Red_Wyrm

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill (Solved It)
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2020, 03:56:12 am »
Quote
I'm not sure I know the legendary rule works.

Okay, so basically, if you control two permanent with EXACTLY the same name, you have to sacrifice one. You can have Squee the Immortal and Squee, Goblin Nabob out at the same time because they do not have EXACTLY the same name. They arent the same card, even though they are both the goblin, Squee. You cannot have 2 Squee, Goblin Nabob creatures in play, weather it is two of the card, or a token you made with rite of replication, or a copy like Clone. For all intents and purposes, tokens and copies are exactly the card they make a copy of. There are a few cases this isnt true like commander damage, but dont worry about that.

Now to what you said about doing it at instant speed, no you cannot. So you have mox amber in play. You play another one, and you have to sacrifice it as a state based action.
Quote
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for
any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions
simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the
check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on
the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the
result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player
gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-
based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are
waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.

Okay so the way I think about it is a computer code that is always checking for state based actions at every step of the game.

So pretty much whenever anything would happen, you have to perform any state based actions first. You can't do anything until they are done. So you cant do something in response to the sacrifice for the legendary rule.

I only looked at the table of contents, so not very thoroughly, but I didnt see legendaries anywhere up there so I can't white the specific legendary rule. I'll post this and then see if I can find it. If I do I'll post it for you.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 04:01:57 am by Red_Wyrm »
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Slyvester12

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2020, 05:04:14 am »
"205.4d. Any permanent with the supertype 'legendary' is subject to the state-based action for legendary permanents, also called the 'legend rule' (see rule 704.5k).

"704.5k. If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the 'legend rule.' "

What Red_Wyrm said is correct. Essentially, the legend rule causes a state-based action as soon as a duplicate legend hits the field. State-based actions do not use the stack, and are always resolved before everything else. You can't even tap the Mox Amber for mana, despite the fact that mana abilities also don't use the stack (if I remember correctly).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 05:15:01 am by Slyvester12 »
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Red_Wyrm

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2020, 05:29:13 am »
"205.4d. Any permanent with the supertype 'legendary' is subject to the state-based action for legendary permanents, also called the 'legend rule' (see rule 704.5k).

"704.5k. If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the 'legend rule.' "

Essentially, the legend rule causes a state-based action as soon as a duplicate legend hits the field. State-based actions do not use the stack, and are always resolved before everything else. You can't even tap the Mox Amber for mana, despite the fact that mana abilities also don't use the stack (if I remember correctly).

Thank you for finding the exact rule, thank you sir!

And you are completely right about the inability to tap for mana despite mana abilities not using the stack, but I'd like to explain why. So you can only activate mana abilities while you have priority. Priority and the stack are used in conjunction with each other a lot, but here they are completely separate. We don't care about the stack right now. So, in short, when the state based actions are occurring, no one has priority. Nothing can be done until the all state based actions have been performed. Now the fact that mana abilities don't use the stack means that they can't be responded to. Say you have Urza's incubator out naming Eldrazi and you go to cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. So you tap 9 lands for 9 mana. Your opponent cannot say, "In response, I cast Naturalize targeting Urza's Incubator."  So yeah, that's what that means.

Quote
What Red_Wyrm said is correct.

Does that make up for my post on your Ezuri, Renegade leader deck and/or my Bolas's Citadel misplay?
My King Baby said yes!
I thought you'd never ask
Also, I always spell your name correctly, Red_Wurm.  :)

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Slyvester12

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Re: Pioneer-Legal One-Turn Kill
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2020, 07:36:54 am »
I mean, I'd call helping someone with a fiddly rules question worth a couple of misreads. The Bolas's Citadel one was at least as much your playgroup's fault for letting it happen, too.
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