Opinions on potential changes to Commander?

[Soren841]

Hybrid costs give a card a color identity of 2 colors though, I don't see how they differ from flip cards. There's no logic behind the decision, regardless of how much people want it.

[CleanBelwas]

While I think I have come back around to thinking hybrid mana should be considered both when it comes to deck building and construction, I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and present what I feel are the counter arguments.

The first is, as MaRo stated, this rule makes hybrid mana function differently in commander than it does in any other format, which is a needless complication at a base level.

I think it's a good point, but ultimately I think the restrictions of colour for you deck already limit in a way that no other format has, and that restriction actually contributes to a huge part of what makes commander unique and fun and flavourful.

Also (and again, I don't necessarily agree with this, just putting it forward as an argument), one could reason that hybrid mana is different to those of rocks and lands that could produce off colour mana as those do contain explicitly mana symbols that don't appear in your decks colour identity. It is this ruling that still allows you to run off colour fetches. One could argue (and MaRo did) that the hybrid mana symbol was designed to be interpreted as either/or, not both. They are visually different and far more open to interpretation than regular or even phyrexian mana symbols.

I don't think these arguments quite hold enough water personally, but I can see the logic behind them.

One of the things MaRo kept coming back to is intuition, and I think if you explained the rules of Commander to a new player, then showed them Kitchen Finks, they would assume that it could only be played in Selesnya or something that encompasses it, and certainly not mono white or green.

Edit:

Also, Rhys the Redeemed. That dude is neither mono colours.

I will also mention here for those that didn't listen to the podcast, MaRo stated that part of his inclination to change the hybrid mana rule is that he feels like it has huge potential to impact and worsen future design space. I haven't been a game designer at WotC for the last 20 years, so I won't pretend to know as much about this as he does, but when he's assessing it from a design perspective rather than a game play one, I can see where he is coming from. I still think I'm overall against the change, but I respect where his stance came from.

[terminalgeek]

WotC should leave well enough alone. If they don't like the restrictions that EDH brings then they should stop making cards tailored for it in standard sets just to lure EDH players into propping up the latest set. They forced Brawl upon themselves and now that takes up some design space as well. Once a year pre-cons and draft sets are good enough. Of course that's probably the finance side of the house dictating things to the design team. I'm just worried they're going to muck it up.

[CleanBelwas]

WotC should leave well enough alone. If they don't like the restrictions that EDH brings then they should stop making cards tailored for it in standard sets just to lure EDH players into propping up the latest set. They forced Brawl upon themselves and now that takes up some design space as well. Once a year pre-cons and draft sets are good enough. Of course that's probably the finance side of the house dictating things to the design team. I'm just worried they're going to muck it up.

MaRo did actually mention as one of his precursors that WotC have no control or input over the rules and decisions made around Commander. If any of these changes did come to pass, it'd be down to the Commander Rules Committee, and I have a lot less faith in those guys making good decisions than I do in WotC.

That said, I'm also not naive enough to believe that WotC would support this homebrew format without considerable influence. They may not have the final say, but I doubt very much that they are powerless.

[WWolfe]

Oh WOTC definitely has some pull (though who knows how much). Or do you believe the RC just coincidentally decided to unban Protean Hulk right before it was reprinted in Masters 25?

I'd suspect it's a give and take relationship. You give WOTC this and they'll give Commander players that.

[CleanBelwas]

Oh WOTC definitely has some pull (though who knows how much). Or do you believe the RC just coincidentally decided to unban Protean Hulk right before it was reprinted in Masters 25?

I'd suspect it's a give and take relationship. You give WOTC this and they'll give Commander players that.

Yea I'm in the same boat as you here. I suspect they maintain this independence for their official status, but behind the doors I bet there is a lot of give and take going on. Probably more so now than ever before, with Commander's rapidly increasing popularity and cash cow potential.

[Red_Wyrm]

This allows you to run Archangel Avacyn in a mono white deck.

I may come back and reply more to your post later (there's some I disagree with) however this is wrong. From the Wizards site...

Archangel Avacyn has a white casting cost, but can transform into Avacyn, the Purifier who has a red color identity. Archangel Avacyn's color identity is white and red.

edit to add link- https://magic.wizards.com/en/content/commander-format

No no no. I was saying if we removed the whole color identity thing we could do that. Yes as the rules are now. We cannot do that. Sorry for the confusion.

[WWolfe]

I disagree about why having color restrictions when building your deck. You chose a commander to challenge yourself to build around that commander whose abilities are founded in the piece or pieces of the color pie they represent. Otherwise, why select a commander to build around those abilities if you're going to go outside the color pie for things the commander would never be able to do?

What in red indicates Counterspell fitting in a Krenko deck?

[WizardSpartan]

If I am killing you with commander damage, I am most likely going to do it with a dedicated voltron deck.

There are plenty of commanders that can win through commander damage despite not building around it (Alesha, Who Smiles at Death equipped with Whispersilk Cloak/Sunforger) and I can easily see a lifegain player gain an arbitrary amount of life, get teamed up on, and be left with no board. Even commanders like Alesha with only 3 power represent a 7 turn clock minimum, and I've killed more people than I can count with an unblockable, untargetable Alesha. Don't knock it.

Why are you crying over Sen Triplets? Your name is GolgariFTW, not EsperFTW.

Disclaimer: I personally hate Esper colors . Not my thing. I see your point, but I feel like making out of color disappear would be too much. Various weird cards that change the colors of mana would basically make your opponent's mana go away entirely, and Blood Moon against non red decks would be even worse than it currently is.

And I'll address all the arguments against my idea:
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: So what if they get black mana? The way my idea is set up means that none of the cards in a deck with a color identity of RW, say, is that the only time you could use black mana specifically is with weird cards like Sen Triplets or with the hybrid mana symbols of R/B or W/B. They already could activate those abilities even without black mana.

Opulent Palace (any land that produces colors outside commander's color identity): Its color identity is GUB, so it can't be run in decks that don't have a minimum color identity of GUB.

Lands/rocks/creatures that make any color of mana: You can still make mana outside of color identity of commander, but the only uses they would be have would be the same as black mana made by lands affected by Urborg.

Bloom Tender: Yes, it would make G & B mana in the presence of Deathrite Shaman, but like I've said previously in this post, that doesn't matter.

Rhys the Redeemed: Hmm. I would say my idea only works for cards that you're considering as a part of the 99. Therefore, Rhys the Redeemed as a commander would have a color identity of G/W. As a creature in a deck, it can be in either W or G decks.

I get this gets confusing, but I think it's more simple than it seems. Any hybrid symbol on a card in the 99 can be considered as 1 color or the other color in terms of color identity. As a commander, the color identity is the same as originally.

[Spinsane]

Rhys the Redeemed: Hmm. I would say my idea only works for cards that you're considering as a part of the 99. Therefore, Rhys the Redeemed as a commander would have a color identity of G/W. As a creature in a deck, it can be in either W or G decks.

I get this gets confusing, but I think it's more simple than it seems. Any hybrid symbol on a card in the 99 can be considered as 1 color or the other color in terms of color identity. As a commander, the color identity is the same as originally.

So if I had a Mono-G (let's say Ezuri, Renegade Laader) deck and added Rhys the Redeemed in there, Rhys would be a Mono-G card? Would Bloom Tender then produce just one mana, or would he still produce two because Rhys is GW?

Could Reaper King become playable in every single deck because he could be argued to be a (10) colourless creature, or a (6GB) Golgari creature, or whichever combination you want, and thus fit within any commander's colour identity?

As WWolfe said, I feel as though gaining access to these cards should be a reward for fitting both halves of the card within your commander's colour identity...

[poke6809]

I mainly play aggro-decks in EDH, so here my 2 cents about commander damage and infect:

Commander-Damage: Adds viability to aggressive strategies, instead of dealing 120 damage you need 63, but you restrict yourself to dealing the damage in a certain way. I see the commander damage as compensation for your commitment. Especially in high-power metas games are rarely won by combat damage alone. If you would remove commander damage, you potentially erase an entire unique to the format archetype, and all of that because "you need to keep track"?

Infect: Anyone who is either for infect to 20 or against infect in general has never built a dedicated infect deck and tried to win. I understand why it is disliked by many, but its far from being broken. By playing infect you drive the commander-damage scenario to the highest level: its THE glass cannon. You need 1) infect creature (which mostly have horrendous rates, except for blightdaddy) 2) combat trick and 3) preferably haste or evasion. With all 3 you potentially kill 1 player, and this is exactly where the problem arises:
I run a dedicated infect deck, Xenagos as commander. When I enter a pot, I will guaranteed kill 1 Player, quickly. This is the main reason for people disliking infect. They want to play commander and die after 5 turns whilst the rest keeps playing. I understand why some say it isnt "fun" to them, but its far from broken. Its playing 3-4 mana 2/Xs ( Core Prowler, Corpse Cur, Blight Widow )  and Colossal Might etc., and trying not to run out of steam. If you dislike infect, dont try to ban it or change the rules, just dont play it and voice you dislike playing against it. I dont like stax, do I want to ban stasis? No, because banning something limits the potential fun for others to have, whilst im not forced to play against it. (Setting infect to 20 is pseudo-banning it, getting all 4 players to 10 is serious work)
And the last point: If you have problems with playing against infect but want to compete and play against it: Get 1-2 early blockers. Infect players like to keep hitting someone they hit before as long as they dont oneshot. Just try not to take the first hit.

[WWolfe]

On infect & commander damage: If you take away infect and/or commander damage, certain commanders just become as obsolete as some that already are (ie, a lot of the Boros commanders). My Skullbriar deck, sure it's built primarily to be a 1v1 deck but I do on occasion enjoy playing it in multiplayer. Without infect or commander damage that deck becomes worthless in multiplayer as there's just no way for it do deal 120 damage (more if there's a lifegain deck in the pod) before it becomes a target that never stays on the board. Whereas having to deal 30 infect or 63 commander is reasonable. It still becomes a target but it's a target with a much more achievable goal.

[WizardSpartan]

So if I had a Mono-G (let's say Ezuri, Renegade Laader) deck and added Rhys the Redeemed in there, Rhys would be a Mono-G card? Would Bloom Tender then produce just one mana, or would he still produce two because Rhys is GW?

Could Reaper King become playable in every single deck because he could be argued to be a (10) colourless creature, or a (6GB) Golgari creature, or whichever combination you want, and thus fit within any commander's colour identity?

As WWolfe said, I feel as though gaining access to these cards should be a reward for fitting both halves of the card within your commander's colour identity...

Yes, Rhys the Redeemed would fit, but I think you're pointing out one of the problems with my idea. I would think of it as: in-game, color identity stays the same. When building the deck, though, it gets confusing. The color identity "changes" to 1 of the 2 colors in the hybrid pair. How this would be easily explained/implemented, though, I dunno. (Reaper King would have the ability to go into every deck, which might create some balance questions)

Basically, hybrid cards were created to provide flexibility. You could play them in mono color decks or in dual color decks, they become extremely easy to cast. Like people have mentioned, their background is not gold. Their background is half 1 color, half the other. Therefore, (imo) they should be treated differently than gold cards. They were designed to provide options, choices. They aren't doing that in EDH right now.

[Soren841]

It's just not at all consistent with the rest of the game mechanics. It doesn't work logically or in the rule set of the game

[Red_Wyrm]

It's just not at all consistent with the rest of the game mechanics. It doesn't work logically or in the rule set of the game

I agree with this. Thinking about cards like Rhys or Reaper King that I originally forgot to think about in my first post, it isn't really possibly to logically make a rule for all these hybris cards treating them as either color, not both. As much as I'd like to include deathrite shaman in my mono black deck, there are too many problems.