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Author Topic: Is Winota any good?  (Read 494 times)

Morganator 2.0

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Is Winota any good?
« on: May 21, 2020, 01:20:31 pm »


After seeing Winota get banned in Brawl, I'm starting to wonder if she's the Boros commander we've been waiting for. Her ability is certainly more powerful than other Boros commanders. But does she also suffer from the usual drawbacks with Boros (lack of card draw, mana ramp, and combos)?

Does anyone have any experience playing with Winota so far? How does her play-style work, and is it anything special or just another aggro deck?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 07:53:19 pm by Morganator 2.0 »

Varatius

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2020, 03:49:53 am »
So far in my buddies winnota deck we've found it is hard to balance non-human and humans to where she is consistent.
Most of the time she ends up flopping however when she does work its a very one-sided game.   

WizardSpartan

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2020, 04:50:45 am »
Not a fan, honestly. Varatius hit the nail on the head when describing balancing non-human and human creatures. I think she's substantially better in Brawl for several reasons.

1. 60 cards vs. 100 cards is gigantic when she looks at the top 6 cards of your library.
2. 20 life vs 120 life is major when your Commander says "attack" in its oracle text.
3. The power level is just much lower in Brawl.

I honestly shudder when thinking about trying to build a decent, consistent deck around her. Blegh. No card draw, bad tutors, very boom or bust. Nah.

Slyvester12

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2020, 06:16:03 am »
I think she's probably not great as a commander, but a serious value piece in certain piles. Reaper King shapeshifter tribal gets really scary really quickly with Winota triggers.
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Marshstepper78

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2020, 09:58:52 pm »
I'm not a huge fan personally. I feel figuring out a good human/non-human ratio is more hassle than she's worth.

Morganator 2.0

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2020, 11:27:32 pm »
So the human to non-human ratio isn't that difficult to figure out. I could do some probabilities, but I'm guessing 2 humans for every non-human is a good ratio. You can also use humans that create non-human tokens (like Captain of the Watch).

I'm more concerned about two things. First, is Winota able to keep playing cards and break parity? Second, what is the deck's win condition? Are there any bomb humans that can win the game when you play them?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 06:52:19 pm by Morganator 2.0 »

Judaspriester

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2020, 11:53:45 pm »
hmm.. top deck manipulation would help, but thats difficult in boros. The only thing comming into my mind is Scroll Rack.
It would most likely "only" work for the first hit, but increases the chances alot, since you can put back humans you've drawn.

Shapeshifters would also be interesting, but as I think about them, they shouldn't count as non-human since "every creature type" includes human. So they doesn't seem to be the key for the human - non-human ratio.

/edit: stuff to thin out the library like Land Tax would also increase the hit chance, but I think that's still not enough, even with 20+ basics that can be fetched. Land Tax would also become a priority 1 target for removal (even compared to "common" games where you play it).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:01:14 am by Judaspriester »
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robort

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2020, 01:34:46 am »
I wouldn't want to try this but if I did. Play something like God-Eternal Oketra or Crested Sunmare. Try to get fancy with Silverwing Squadron because you put out knights that attack to put out more humans. As for Humans one could go with Godo, Bandit Warlord/Combat Celebrant Helm of the Host Combo. Run the Goblins that produce goblin tokens and just attack until you hit either of those human creatures.
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Slyvester12

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2020, 05:39:13 am »
Shapeshifters would also be interesting, but as I think about them, they shouldn't count as non-human since "every creature type" includes human. So they doesn't seem to be the key for the human - non-human ratio.

Shapeshifters don't trigger Winota because they count as human, but you CAN grab them with Winota triggers. The reason I said Reaper King specifically is it helps give value to the triggers, because you don't only get a human, you also get to destroy a target permanent. Run a few mana dorks and some value pieces like Dockside Extortionist or Caustic Caterpillar and you wind up with enough triggers to dig for what you want.
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Bonethor

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2020, 12:50:27 pm »
/edit: stuff to thin out the library like Land Tax would also increase the hit chance, but I think that's still not enough, even with 20+ basics that can be fetched. Land Tax would also become a priority 1 target for removal (even compared to "common" games where you play it).

Endless Horizons can remove quite a bit of cards and ensure land drops every turn until it gets removed.

Other than that I'd personally go for Mana Echoes, Aggravated assault and Ashnod's Altar style things with some of the (as already mentioned) humans that create white soldier creature tokens for example. You can tutor for enchantments and artifacts easily in white so it should be possible to get a lot of activations and extra combats even if you can't quite go infinite with them.

Judaspriester

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2020, 01:56:33 pm »
Other than that I'd personally go for Mana Echoes, Aggravated assault and Ashnod's Altar style things with some of the (as already mentioned) humans that create white soldier creature tokens for example. You can tutor for enchantments and artifacts easily in white so it should be possible to get a lot of activations and extra combats even if you can't quite go infinite with them.

If you want to go infinite very long (it can't go infinite, since you're limited by the cards in your library) with Aggravated Assault you would also need Phyrexian Altar for the colored mana. Besides that, you need some more sac food to get the engine run long enough to finish the game.
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Bonethor

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2020, 02:26:49 pm »
Other than that I'd personally go for Mana Echoes, Aggravated assault and Ashnod's Altar style things with some of the (as already mentioned) humans that create white soldier creature tokens for example. You can tutor for enchantments and artifacts easily in white so it should be possible to get a lot of activations and extra combats even if you can't quite go infinite with them.

If you want to go infinite very long (it can't go infinite, since you're limited by the cards in your library) with Aggravated Assault you would also need Phyrexian Altar for the colored mana. Besides that, you need some more sac food to get the engine run long enough to finish the game.

You can go infinite with the extra combats though, I was just laying an outline of the strategy I'd use to get more uses out of the commander as well. Neheb the Eternal works great if you can get a hold of him before going for it, Hero of Bladehold creates sac fodder every attack step. I specifically said Ashnod's Altar style things to include other ones that would apply, just couldn't remember the name of the other one there. All the guys from your triggers are also indestructible until end of turn so they can just keep on going.

I doubt it takes too many attacks to take people out when you get something like the order blockers how you want Odric out etc. Obviously it's not cedh tier stuff but should still make for a decently strong deck. And yes it would also need haste enablers to keep those guys from triggers attacking during the next combats but if that seems too weak one can always go for Godo Helm of the Host and a slew of other things.

Judaspriester

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2020, 06:52:14 pm »
Well.. with enough extra stuff it works, but I was thinking about the initial shell you where talking about.
Yes, with neheb and/or some other cards you acutally can go infinite, but the problem is that every additional card means a loss of efficiency, since you have to get it on your hand/on the board.

Hmm.. thinking about this, basicly the shell would already work with Neheb + Assault. then you just need enough initial damage to kick off. Mana Barbs and Phyrexian/Ashnod's Altar wouldn't be necessary here. But that's something you can do with every deck that includes red, nothing special with Winota. In fact I would doubt it's nothing she would do much better than other boros commanders.
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Bonethor

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2020, 07:45:43 pm »
Mana Echoes but it's true those cards wouldn't be necessary.. the benefit though would be that you can keep Neheb triggering Winota by attacking someone who's open enough to Neheb while sending the triggered creatures at someone else so there's some synergy there.

Just finding out that some of the fairly regular aggro strategies seem to be the better options for her is something to note regardless :P at least she's cheaper to cast than something like Gisela, Blade of goldnight.

terminalgeek

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Re: Is Winota any good?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2020, 05:45:26 pm »
She was best in Brawl which is why she was banned. In standard, the ability to access things like Agent of Treachery make her good there too.

In EDH, it's probably tricky to balance the human/non-human aspects. I wouldn't mind including her just for value in my Trynn & Silvar deck. When attacking with Silvar, Devourer of the Free she could dig humans out of the deck for me.