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Author Topic: Which commander deck would you like me to build?  (Read 1728 times)

Schau

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Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« on: November 30, 2020, 10:49:05 pm »
In this list are a total of 197 legendary creatures that I have not built a deck around yet, which of these would you like me to build next?
I know this is a very open ended question so to narrow it down, which one would you enjoy playing with the most and how would you build it?
I will build the deck that the most people agree upon and post it when I am done.

(If you open the deck it will sort it by color to make it easier to read if needed)

https://deckstats.net/decks/131150/1838137-possible-commanders-to-build-a

« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 10:55:12 pm by Schau »

WizardSpartan

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2020, 11:48:18 pm »
I'll begin this off with the obvious:
EZURI, RENEGADE LEADER

With support from my fellow elf brother, I'm sure we can push the superior commander through the rest of the chaff.
Now, let me just call him.


♪♪Slyvesterrr♪♪

Slyvester12

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2020, 02:14:29 am »
I felt a disturbance in the force.

Also, yeah, Ezuri. We have a joint primer you can look at, but the bullet points are:
*Fun creature centric deck that builds tons of mana
*Cheap lands because mono G (minus Gaea's Cradle)
*Surprising amounts of redundancy with lots of movable pieces in all major combos/synergies
Elves and infect are the best things in Magic.

Cosmic_Insight

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2020, 02:21:01 am »
I feel like Grenzo, Dungeon Warden could be interesting with the right stuff... nobody expects the Rakdos Inquisition...
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. owo

Firegriff

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2020, 06:21:16 am »
I like unusual decks, so I will go with Sigarda, Heron's Grace.  With Slippery Bogbonder and Bastion Protector in the mix, and a deck full of humans, maybe an interesting build around atm.  And leaves open a possible Shalai, Voice of Plenty.

Schau

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2020, 02:31:47 pm »
Ezuri seems like the general consensus although sigarda does seem like a fun build, so I think I will build those two, but any other suggestions are welcome. :)

p

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2020, 02:43:13 pm »
I think [[Nin,, the Pain Artist]] would be fun.

WizardSpartan

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2020, 03:27:52 pm »
Ezuri seems like the general consensus although sigarda does seem like a fun build, so I think I will build those two, but any other suggestions are welcome. :)
I have a few:

Marwyn, the Nurturer is another alternative to Ezuri. She's a lot more of a glass cannon but even more explosive. I personally stopped running her because it was pretty much either she got removed or I exploded to win way too early. Still, most of her deck and most of Ezuri's deck will overlap, so if you want to give her a try first, that might be cool.

I've had a lot of fun with Feather, the Redeemed. Extremely cheap to build well, so even if you get bored of her down the line, you're only out ~$50. It can be an absolute blast, try her out.

I don't have a particularly large amount of experience with Nethroi, Apex of Death (I wasn't super interested in even more graveyard commanders than the 2 I already had), but I playtested a little bit and he (it?) was super wild.

Brago, King Eternal is also very stupid. Extremely stupid. Blink goes brrr.

stuffnsuch

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2020, 09:53:38 pm »
I don't get everyone liking Ezuri.  Seems like a weaker version of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa to me, and still probably very powerful, since Kamahl is seriously OP.  I don't really enjoy going for a straightforward and consistently powerful approach, but if that's you, Ezuri might be right for you.

It really depends on what sort of deckbuilding and play experience you're after, but I can't recommend highly enough looking for weird and strange options that no one see's coming.  If you are going with Ezuri, there's not much in the way of options besides Elf Tribal.  If you go with Borborygmos, you can go Voltron, Stompy, Tokens, +1/+1 counters, some combination of those, or probably several other strategies I'd not thought of.

I'd recommend Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner, and see if you can make it into a one hit kill before it looses Hexproof.  There are several ways to do that, Auras, Anthems, Pump spells, Damage Doublers, etc. so be creative, and make it your own.  Good luck.

WizardSpartan

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2020, 10:22:47 pm »
I don't get everyone liking Ezuri.  Seems like a weaker version of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa to me, and still probably very powerful, since Kamahl is seriously OP. 

WHAT???

Kamahl, seriously OP??

Ezuri, weaker than Kamahl??

It's hard to compare the 2, but I have no idea how you can just generalize Ezuri as being objectively weaker than a 6 CMC commander in the exact same colors. As an Elfball commander, Ezuri is king, hands-down. Who cares if you can turn your lands into little creatures? Ezuri uses the large amount of mana elves are known to generate to give them fantastic protection and an efficient win condition. Not to mention, he is half the CMC of Kamahl, which is insanely important for the early, difficult-to-interact-with wins Ezuri is known for.

I think it's more than a little cocky of you to just walk in and say that an 18 year old, 6 CMC commander is just a better version of a Commander that both Slyvester and I have years of experience playing and winning with. At least provide some support or something.

Your point is even more undermined by the fact you consider Kamahl "seriously OP." What world do you live in? Very, very few commanders are "seriously OP" (I wouldn't even be as absolute about Ezuri as you are about Kamahl), and Kamahl is in no way one of them.

I don't really enjoy going for a straightforward and consistently powerful approach, but if that's you, Ezuri might be right for you.
I feel like you haven't even bothered to read Sly's post where he said "Surprising amounts of redundancy with lots of movable pieces in all major combos/synergies," let alone read through the parts of our primer where we go into more detail into the upsides of Ezuri, and how we win the game with him. If you have, then you would understand that you don't just find a single line every game and win. There are multiple lines and they all blend into each other.

I can speak for my list in particular that it is rare to just win with an infinite combo. You have to sequence, decide when to go for the win, count your mana, and do the math to see how to deal the most damage and where it should go. If you find all of that "straightforward," then almost everything you will encounter in Magic is straightforward.

PickleLover

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2020, 02:55:15 pm »
i've always like mikaeus, the lunarch as a card

idk if it would be good as a commander but you might be able to do some interesting things with those abilities

otherwise, just go ezuri lol
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stuffnsuch

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2020, 06:35:50 pm »
I think it's more than a little cocky of you to just walk in and say that an 18 year old, 6 CMC commander is just a better version of a Commander that both Slyvester and I have years of experience playing and winning with. At least provide some support or something.

I still don't understand why everyone thinks Ezuri is more powerful than Kamahl, but that wasn't the point of the discussion.  And it's not cocky to say you don't understand something, it's cocky to say you do understand something.  I'm relatively new to this format (though I have been playing Magic since the late nineties, so I'm not a complete noob either).  I legitimately don't understand why Ezuri is considered to be better.  You asked for justification, and I'm more than happy to give it.  I may get things wrong, but, like I said, I don't understand the reason Ezuri is considered to be all that great.  Here are some of the ideas from my thought process:

Ezuri and Kamahl both provide your creatures with a powerful finish in a big mana/go wide strategy, but do relatively little in a different deck archetype.  In that regard they're very similar in the type of deck they want you to build.  Lots of dorks and ramp and perhaps making a bunch of tokens, then swing in for a big finish with a few activations from your commander.

Ezuri is much cheaper, but as the commander's primary function in the deck is as a finisher, there's little reason to worry over something as trivial as 3 mana in a deck that's producing 20-40 mana (or possibly infinite?) by the end of the game.  You're really wanting them to close out the game, the protection they provide is mana intensive and, therefor, only possibly helpful early on anyways.

They both provide great protection in their own way.  Ezuri protects best against single target removal by being able to regenerate elves, while Kamahl protects best against Board Wipes by threatening to turn opposing lands into creatures.  One or two mana might save a couple elves, but threatening to destroying one or two lands can turn off most board wipes.  Since board wipes are a much bigger problem in a go wide strategy, I feel that's typically the protection you want.

Kamahl boosts all creatures, while Ezuri is limited to elves.  Most of your creatures in both builds will be elves, but Kamahl adds some flexibility to utilize cards like Ant Queen for all that excess mana before you close, or even turn your Sakura-Tribe Elder or Birds of Paradise into a threat late game.

More people play Ezuri.  It's a newer card, it's more popular in general, and it's cheaper to purchase.  The cheap thing is a plus, but the fact that it's more heavily played means more people are familiar with it, and you'll loose the uniqueness factor which for me just feels good.  Also, people are less likely to misplay against a more familiar commander, but that's probably not enough to make a measurable difference in win percentages.  So, this is pretty subjective, but I just prefer to be a little different.

That's what I'm thinking as far as why Kamahl feels better to me personally.  It's just the way I see it.

I will give you that OP is not necessarily the right term, but it's the one that felt like it caught the essence of what I'm trying to get at.  I don't know if there's an easier way to express the idea that a card turns the color's greatest strength into a repeatable consistently overwhelming win condition while also robbing your opponent of their biggest threat to your strategy.

Also, by straightforward, I was referring to deck building, which, Ezuri is (as is Kamahl, to an only slightly lesser extent).  I don't personally like commanders that give you an extremely clear picture of how to build the deck, or, if they do, I really don't like building them that way.  Sure, I've got my Ukkima/Food Chain deck and my Jhoira deck stuffed with mana rocks, but I don't enjoy building those as much as building around a commander that makes me figure out the strategy, or even consider between several possible strategies, or where I go completely against the obvious most obvious strategy.  Once again, that's just me, so I don't expect every one to agree with that sentiment.  I just was putting in my two cents.  I can tell there are some strong feelings from the Ezuri playing community (who doesn't get emotionally attached to a good elf deck?) so I will pick my words more carefully next time.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 06:43:37 pm by stuffnsuch »

Slyvester12

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2020, 08:05:57 pm »
Since you seem genuinely curious why everyone considers Ezuri better than Kamahl, here's the quick answer:
Ezuri's cheaper, his protection is better, and elves are so incredibly powerful that there's really nothing "limiting" about playing elf tribal.

The long answer is a bit more complex. For starters, it depends on what kind of Ezuri deck you're talking about. Typically, if you're arguing power levels, combo archetypes are more powerful than aggro strategies, so I'm going to assume that both decks intend to go infinite and kill each opponent with a single creature or dump their mana into a win condition.

So, Ezuri is cheaper. That's important because you often want to play Ezuri before elves that are important to your combo. He can't stop all forms of removal, but having regenerate on key pieces for G is a pretty good deal. There are a small number of situations in which you have exactly enough mana to play Ezuri before dumping your combo and going for a win. Kamahl's cost doesn't really matter in his deck because he doesn't offer protection, just mutual destruction. It's not nothing, but it only stops symmetrical board wipes. Ezuri can come down early to protect mana dorks for chump blocking, avoiding targeted removal, etc...

Next, Ezuri's protection is better. Like mentioned before, Kamahl only serves as a deterrent, not actual protection. Plus, he has to be out before you can combo off to protect your board, meaning you've had to shell out 4GG when you didn't have infinite mana and almost certainly had other things you'd like to cast. Ezuri's regenerate doesn't cover everything by any means, but it's a great deal better in most situations.

As far as build options go, yeah, Ezuri's got elves. That's about it. Since that being a good or bad thing is completely subjective (as elves are perfectly viable and really only hindered by being mostly mono green), I don't really see a need to argue here. I like elves. Other people like elves. Some don't like elves. It's an opinion.

For what Kamahl can give you outside of elves... who cares? Ezuri doesn't have to play solely elves. My list has Wirewood Symbiote, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Temur Sabertooth. Yeah, most of the deck is elves because they're particularly synergistic, but there's also nothing I'm really missing out on. Ant Queen doesn't do anything because if I'm attacking with an infinite/infinite creature with trample, I only need one creature. You can do different go wide variations with Kamahl than just elf tribal with lords, but those are objectively weaker. If you don't care about the deck's power, then Ezuri can function as a voltron commander who only buffs himself; the point is, Ezuri doesn't really restrict the deck's power compared to Kamahl.

You mentioned uncommon commanders being harder to play against. That's only really true if you play with randoms or only play the deck once. In my experience, most people play with regular groups, so that extra novelty doesn't do much after the first few games. Also, unless your combo pieces and other parts of your strategy are similarly rare, no one's going to be fooled by Kamahl running the same Umbral Mantle combo that other infinite mana green decks run.

So, to sum up, Ezuri is a better commander for the infinite mana into win strategy. If you like Kamahl better, great. If you think he's more powerful, that's perfectly fine too, but I'd be interested to hear why. Also, this was a great deal more than I expected to say on the subject, so I apologize for the wall of text.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 08:07:43 pm by Slyvester12 »
Elves and infect are the best things in Magic.

WizardSpartan

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2020, 09:04:04 pm »
You made some points I didn't think about, Stuffnsuch, so I'll try to go through my take on them.

Kamahl protects best against Board Wipes by threatening to turn opposing lands into creatures.
While this is true, I'm not only concerned about boardwipes. Targeted removal on my (often only) big mana source can set me back a few turns or even lose me the game depending on other factors. Turning an opponent's land into a 1/1 doesn't do anything about that. Forcing your opponent to remove Ezuri, then also have removal for the creature they actually want to kill is super impactful and often means the difference between keeping that Priest of Titania and winning or losing her and losing the game.

Ezuri is much cheaper, but as the commander's primary function in the deck is as a finisher, there's little reason to worry over something as trivial as 3 mana in a deck that's producing 20-40 mana (or possibly infinite?) by the end of the game.  You're really wanting them to close out the game, the protection they provide is mana intensive and, therefore, only possibly helpful early on anyways.
I do want to point out the dichotomy here. You earlier said that Kamahl should be out early, before you are ready to win the game to deter boardwipes (i.e. him costing 3 more mana than Ezuri matters because mana is likely still tight in early turns), but then you dismiss the fact that Kamahl costs extra mana on the basis that you only cast him late, once you have so much mana it doesn't matter.

So assuming that we want Kamahl/Ezuri out early to protect our developing board, Ezuri costing 3 mana less gives you a lot of flexibility compared to Kamahl. He can either come out even earlier if you want to protect your board from as early as turn 2-3 or come out on the same turn as Kamahl would except you have 3 extra mana for various other things.

Kamahl boosts all creatures, while Ezuri is limited to elves.  Most of your creatures in both builds will be elves, but Kamahl adds some flexibility to utilize cards like Ant Queen for all that excess mana before you close, or even turn your Sakura-Tribe Elder or Birds of Paradise into a threat late game.
Like Slyvester said, Ezuri can still run synergistic non-elves. Really, all those cards lose out on is being able to be regenerated or swing for damage on the big turn. I'll be honest, so what? You shouldn't need that Birds of Paradise to deal damage to win the game, as both Ezuri and Kamahl will both be making infinite or near-infinite mana, so 1 extra creature shouldn't matter except in very weird situations. Not being able to be regenerated by Ezuri also doesn't matter too much, as Kamahl cannot protect against targeted removal and can only discourage boardwipes.

Considering play patterns of both, I feel that not only is Ezuri more efficient at protecting his creatures, he is also more resilient in a tough game. Because of both of those factors, I think that Ezuri is more efficient at winning the game not only speedily, but efficiently. "Losing out" on full effectiveness of a few non-Elf creatures doesn't quite make up for the upsides of Ezuri, in my eyes.

I absolutely agree that if you want to run Kamahl to give you more variety in the deckbuilding process, etc., do it. More power to you.

And a last note: Don't apologize for your word choice, so long as you stand by them. We can have differing views, and it's honestly refreshing to meet somebody I can debate with! I genuinely enjoy discussions like these.

TropicalBoi

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Re: Which commander deck would you like me to build?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2020, 12:10:52 am »
I love how this was supposed to be a suggestion, but it turned into an argument over which green commander is better. Just play red, then you don't have to worry about Kamahl or Ezuri! But seriously, I would either suggest Torbran, Thane of Red Fell, or Neheb the Eternal. I love Torbran, the deck he leads is practically my child...

P.S.: Ezuri is far better, because elves.