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Auteur Sujet: Do we still use Counterspell?  (Lu 4148 fois)

anjinsan

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #15 le: Novembre 28, 2021, 12:59:51 am »
I pretty much never put it in. Mana Drain is good enough to go in most any deck as a form of ramp, but otherwise the two blue is awkward to pay (especially in more colours) and if I'm not really focusing on instants/control then I don't necessarily want a lot, but if I am, I prefer a package of cantripping ones (Arcane Denial, Mystic Confluence, Cryptic Command, possibly Keep Safe or Sublime Epiphany - if you're casting at instant speed a lot, holding up the mana is less of an issue). For protection, depends on the colours; there are usually 1-mana protection options, Swan Song, etc.

I do put Dovin's Veto as it is itself uncounterable and Drown in the Loch tends to take a removal slot (that can also be a counterspell).

Elan Morin Tedronai

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #16 le: Décembre 13, 2021, 08:38:45 pm »
No, Counterspell either in my EDH decks. It might have been General Magic discussion. No objection otherwise. Although, I am casual kitchen EDH player and still building them. Especially the Adaptive Enchantment and as of recent version of Draconom(wall)icon. In a solid Naya Nature of the Beast, their place is out of question. I'd rather support and recommend Hindering Light and Render Silent instead for a Counterspelling EDH deck. Or those counterspells where you draw cards and something other happens beside countering the targeted spell? Card for a card is basically. Remand also in this case, yes, but its price is huge. Generally Magic-wise can also be said. It's just 1 card. There are fantastic other spells. I totally support multicolored spells or the Dragon Commands and Charms where something happens or you chose from several things to have multiple effects. But even while I am mostly Modern-player, in my EDH decks, I am All on Creatures. I don't rely on throwing my cards for the cards of the opponents.
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Chavo

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #17 le: Décembre 13, 2021, 11:56:48 pm »
No, Counterspell either in my EDH decks. It might have been General Magic discussion. No objection otherwise. Although, I am casual kitchen EDH player and still building them. Especially the Adaptive Enchantment and as of recent version of Draconom(wall)icon. In a solid Naya Nature of the Beast, their place is out of question. I'd rather support and recommend Hindering Light and Render Silent instead for a Counterspelling EDH deck. Or those counterspells where you draw cards and something other happens beside countering the targeted spell? Card for a card is basically. Remand also in this case, yes, but its price is huge. Generally Magic-wise can also be said. It's just 1 card. There are fantastic other spells. I totally support multicolored spells or the Dragon Commands and Charms where something happens or you chose from several things to have multiple effects. But even while I am mostly Modern-player, in my EDH decks, I am All on Creatures. I don't rely on throwing my cards for the cards of the opponents.
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Chavo

Correct me if I am miss understanding you, but it sounds like you only use interaction if it has an additional upside to it? obviously, an additional upside is nice, but for me, I prefer mana efficient interaction and rely on the rest of my deck to draw me cards or for ramp, it is for this reason that I generally don’t use cards like deathsprout, I would much rather use infernal grasp.

The Golgari Guy

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #18 le: Décembre 14, 2021, 08:15:03 am »
Remand also in this case, yes, but its price is huge.

Wait till you see the price of Mana Drain then...  :)
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Mynus

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #19 le: Décembre 14, 2021, 05:05:15 pm »
Most of the time I am very budget minded, counterspell is still something I look at.

But honestly, I don't play a lot of control magic and don't include many counter effects in my decks, outside of my niv-mizzet slinger deck.

Elan Morin Tedronai

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #20 le: Décembre 15, 2021, 03:23:02 pm »
Correct me if I am miss understanding you, but it sounds like you only use interaction if it has an additional upside to it? obviously, an additional upside is nice, but for me, I prefer mana efficient interaction and rely on the rest of my deck to draw me cards or for ramp, it is for this reason that I generally don’t use cards like deathsprout, I would much rather use infernal grasp.
You can be completely right: I make only Tribal decks and even the EDH decks lean on the Theme; that have Lording creatures who give to each other bonuses and interact on the field with one another in order to be victorious, but also to make the most of the Game. This way in the Dragons with Defenders, I don't need so expensive cards like Mana Drain, Ponder and Preordain. Oh, it's price is even heavier, I saw it. I don't need Counterspell or any other spells in the Adaptive Enchantment. Virtually there I play only Sorceries, I gave up Bant Charm, and strong ones indeed, as Three Dreams, Retether and Resurgent Belief. It should be general Magic question for Counterspell. I am not used to countering and throwing my cards for the cards of an opponent in my Modern Tribal Budget Themes. Even in Ula Kiora-Thassa Sea Monsters, I don't need anything beside Whelming Wave and Crush of Tentacles. In Blue, I would play only wipe boards instead of countering opponent's spells. As of recent on Draconom(wall)icon I'd love to put Belbe's Portal, Herald's Horn, Vanquisher's Banner, Bard Class and Zendikar Resurgent, because I just don't want to play counterspelling spells in such a Dragon EDH deck and virtually not much spells beside the Commands: Dromoka, Silumgar and Ojutai. The strong artifacts and enchantments however are a bit more expensive. To not be empty-talking, I would however recommend Render Silent, Hindering Light, Absorb, Dovin's Veto as MustaKotka, and even high mana valued Fall of the Gavel and Swift Silence for counterspelling decks. Actually, All decks, including EDH and Modern. Anything else that something happens beside throwing your card for an opponent's card. At least, yes: you're completely right: when there's some interaction between the creatures of particular type. Even the Wizards are better in this side for having lords, beside wasting cards for cards. Especially with Docent of Perfection // Final Iteration, Naru Meha, Master Wizard and Adeliz, the Cinder Wind. There's good 3-colored EDH Sevinne, the Chronoclasm, but in her case, I think she could've remained Izzet. Not including White in the edition? Could been done, but alas, it didn't get made back then. Sorry for the much storytelling.
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Chavo

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #21 le: Décembre 15, 2021, 03:31:48 pm »
Okay so wait... do you only use counterspells if it has an additional upside?

Elan Morin Tedronai

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #22 le: Décembre 15, 2021, 04:35:39 pm »
Yes. Completely. It's like generally asked to the public, but I assume it's me. If something else beside "Counter target (-) spell" is written. Totally. In this case however, I put Spell Snuff, Scatter Arc, Runeboggle, Bone to Ash and to extent You Find the Villains' Lair. When in these cases drawing card(s), other than "just" countering targeted spell happens. In my Lord of the Unreal Mono Illusion deck, yes. Not other decks and this particular one is still being built. That's the way I view this combination and I am not playing many counterspells in my Tribals. Only Hindering Light in a Sphinx-Archon-Bird deck and not more than 2 copies. Something else happens and is flavorful enough.
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Chavo

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #23 le: Décembre 15, 2021, 05:29:32 pm »
In this case however, I put Spell Snuff, Scatter Arc, Runeboggle, Bone to Ash and to extent You Find the Villains' Lair.

These counterpells are kinda high cost. 2 mana or less for counterspells are the way to go because 2 mana is often all you will have open when you end your turn. With these counterpells you've named you would need to choose between countering something and advancing your boardstate. The extra card can't possibly be worth that, especially considering that three of these counters are also conditional.

anjinsan

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #24 le: Décembre 15, 2021, 09:51:22 pm »
This is generally accepted to be true, but I think it depends on how much other instant-speed stuff you have. If you're mostly instants (or able to put your mana in some other useful sink), these become a lot more attractive.

Though, I would probably go with Arcane Denial, Cryptic Command, Mystic Confluence, Keep Safe/Hindering Light if I care about permanents, possibly Soul Manipulation (bonus points just for the obscurity) and possibly Sublime Epiphany. Not sure if Dream Fracture makes the cut.

Those ones that are 4 mana and conditional, that just seems too much, but in a counterspell-focused deck possibly.

Bizarro Soapy

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #25 le: Décembre 16, 2021, 10:46:10 am »
Probably just me, but I really prefer to use retargeting effects instead where I can (Divert Redirect Narset's Reversal) since they play so well in multiplayer games and create scenarios that are unavailable in other formats. Otherwise it's counterspells specific to the deck's goal (Spell Swindle Didn't Say Please) or spells with more utility (Muddle the Mixture Absorb Disrupt) I find hard counters like Counterspell, Pact of Negation, Force of Will etc. to be unfun inclusions in a format which is supposed to be casual.
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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #26 le: Décembre 16, 2021, 03:00:29 pm »
I still use Counterspell if a deck is monoblue or dual-colored. Upside is awesome, but I've found I really only want/use counters in exactly three situations: the board is getting wiped when losing my creatures means I'll never recover, when my high cmc commander is being removed (Morophon, Esix, etc.), or when a combo piece that wins the game is coming down. Aside from those two scenarios, I'd rather improve my board state than shut down a strong play from an opponent, so the reward from just stopping the spell is high enough that I'm getting the value I want.

I run light on counters too. Aside from one mono-blue, fish/nope tribal deck in my playgroup, we all pretty much have the same philosophy on counters, so if it comes down to a counter war we're all pretty much holding one; therefore, I won't need to have two in hand if the whole table is invested in not losing the game, and I might have three or four mana up if the play is telegraphed.

anjinsan

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Re: Do we still use Counterspell?
« Réponse #27 le: Décembre 21, 2021, 06:09:03 pm »
Probably just me, but I really prefer to use retargeting effects instead where I can (Divert Redirect Narset's Reversal) since they play so well in multiplayer games and create scenarios that are unavailable in other formats.
I like those too, but they feel terrible when someone board wipes and you don't want them to!
I find hard counters like Counterspell, Pact of Negation, Force of Will etc. to be unfun inclusions in a format which is supposed to be casual.
Is the same true of removal? There's certainly an argument that says so... but I feel that games with no removal or counters are a lot more un-fun, typically. "The format is meant to be casual" implies that you are "meant" to play suboptimally... perhaps what we really want is a better format?