Magic is a complicated game.

[ApothecaryGeist]

I've seen a few discussions recently about answering rules questions.  And someone inevitably getting that answer incorrect.


I just want to say ... Magic is a very complicated game.  Last time I checked, the Comprehensive Rulebook was a 350+ page Word document.  That's crazy!  I don't know any other card game or board game that even comes close to such a monstrosity of a rule book.


The answer isn't always as simple as "this is the rule."  It is often a matter of does rule A apply?  Or rule B?  (Or rule C?)  There are many rules interacting with one another.  It doesn't always make for a simple answer.  I've seen tournament judges have difficulty navigating the various rules interactions.  And many judge disagreements.  (Is it a triggered ability?  Is it a mana ability?  Is this an intervening-if-clause (yeah, that's a thing)? 


Many players aren't so engaged as to have ever looked at the Comprehensive Rules.  Many players do not know what The Stack is. 


No one should be admonished for attempting to help others navigate the rules.  Should that help be incorrect, it is the duty of the more experienced player to help guide all those involved into the proper ruling.  Cite the rule involved.  Cite the card text that explains the answer.  You should not tell people to stay quiet if they aren't 100% certain of the answer.  (I am not always 100% certain of the answer.)  There are many overlaying criteria in Magic.  People learn this very complex game by stating how they think it works, and then being politely corrected.


Please be respectful.  Help people to learn the game, rather than expect that anyone who plays the game should already be a rules expert.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Inevitably, it was me giving the rules answer incorrect, and those rules questions were concerning deathtouch. Unfortunately, I was admonished, disfavored and downvoted to a great extent, that I suspect that some people cardinally turned against me, for reasons I am not familiar with. E.G: I made a suggestion to a person who wants to make a Hydra deck: "Dude, why don't you make it with little Black: there's Gargos, Vicious Watcher, there's Polukranos, Unchained, there's Grakmaw, Skyclave Ravager? It's your deck and your call of course." No. "Bam!" - immediate downvote and I either think it's the person, who disliked me on the moment or either it's someone else, but I refuse to call up names or make accusations.

You're absolutely right: it wasn't very polite such a "fall from grace". I'll be very cautious and guarded in the future in making comments, since I just don't know when someone will hit the downvote and will show sharply disgusted disapproval, when I am trying to be helpful. I made a mistake, I apologized (twice), but I hoped to not have received such a massive outpoor of disapproval, disfavor and "silken dagger" hatred. Alas, I was corrected, but it wasn't politely in my honest opinion. I thank you and robort for standing behind me. It just was kind of sad, hurtful and kind of meaningless to receive such a disapproval with so many downvotes. I would never abuse the button. Frankly however, I think some people look at it a bit childishly and elementary, when I say that I also learnt a lesson, but it could've passed without such a disfavor and discontent.
Regards:
Chavo

[boncoswoll]

Couldn't agree with you more ApothecaryGeist.

This game is wild some times. That's a large part of its charm and those nuances are what a lot of people enjoy.

But as my mother used to say, "Good manners cost nothing".

No one is going to be correct 100% of the time, but everyone can be courteous 100% of the time. The former is inevitable, the latter is a choice.

[Bonethor]

Well there's a silver lining to being wrong; the original poster will most likely get the answer faster when people jump to correct the person in the wrong

I doubt anyone's out to get you Elan Morin Tedronai, but the initial reply being worded the way it was probably triggered people and the subsequent posts playing the victim card probably didn't help. I'm not saying it's cool but it's understandable - just as it's understandable that people are standing up for you! Trying to help is a noble cause and you did help by sparking responses from people, maybe at a bit of a tarnish on your shield but you achieved what you set out to do! Basically I guess the point is that you can't necessarily change people but you can change your perspective.

I'd guess the downvotes exist pretty much for flagging wrong/somehow nasty posts. Maybe someone doesn't like what I'm saying here for example but it is what it is. Probably the best option to mitigate them is to leave the original reply and add an edit referring to someone providing the correct information; personally if I had downvoted the original reply I would definitely upvote the appended one.

Magic is complicated and nobody should be crucified, but the downvotes are a good tool if used correctly. Relevant XKCD linked 

https://xkcd.com/386/

[Aetherium Slinky]

You should not tell people to stay quiet if they aren't 100% certain of the answer.  (I am not always 100% certain of the answer.)  There are many overlaying criteria in Magic.  People learn this very complex game by stating how they think it works, and then being politely corrected.

I disagree. Obviously I don't get the rules 100% times right and I don't want people to feel silenced but I want people to take responsibility for their answers. That includes doing research before replying and cleaning up afterwards. Let's make it really clear: read the appropriate rules even if you're sure about the answer and if it turns out to be the wrong answer you should strike through your wrong reply and edit in the correct answer. EDIT: One should also preferably check the answer with a judge, too. Why? People usually take the first answer they get and go. You only get one chance and if you muck it up you know there is someone out there with false rules information spreading it to others, too.

Games aren't quite as serious as real laws but there's still a reason why we leave legal advice to lawyers and not the common folks on an internet forum. Sure, the one posting the question must also understand that this isn't an official judges' forum so the answers might be wrong but that's not an excuse to give wrong answers due to own negligence.

This voting thing has a bigger impact on other platforms such as Reddit because it changes the way posts are displayed. Ones with a lot of downvotes are hidden, upvotes get a bump toward the top. Obviously that wouldn't work on a forum like this where every reply is a direct chain reply to the original message.

EDIT: From my own behalf I can say that me downvoting incorrect rulings is nothing personal. I simply want to indicate to anyone reading the thread that the answer is somehow incorrect.

Lastly I want to provide you with two resources on how to actually reach a judge:

• https://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/ - This is an IRC based channel where judges hang out answering rules questions. Probably the fastest way to get a ruling.
• https://www.reddit.com/r/askajudge/ - A subreddit dedicated to MtG rules questions answered by certified judges.

[Mynus]

So, I post sparingly, I would post more, but I would consider myself still a pretty fresh magic player, about 2 years now. Therefore, finding areas that I am interested in and have a knowledge about only happens so often. I check these forums almost daily, because it gives me something to do during some downtime at work.

All that to say, that on issues of rules I tend to agree with MustaKotka. If I gave bad info on a rules point, I would expect to be downvoted. Of course no one knows all the rules all the time, but when I ask a question, I expect that the people are answering know the point. Opinion about subjective matters, who cares, but when someone is looking for rules clarity, I personally wouldn't comment unless I know the rule or have experience in the matter.

Somewhat related, do the karma points on this site actually mean/affect anything?

[Aetherium Slinky]

Somewhat related, do the karma points on this site actually mean/affect anything?

They do not as far as I've understood. The title you get below your name (e.g. "Hero Member") on the left is based on the number of posts you've made. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Slyvester12]

To add to what others are saying, I agree about trying to post correct rules information.

I understand not everyone knows fiddly parts of MtG's rules, and most people aren't judges, but I would make it clear in a post if I were unsure about a ruling and try to link relevant info. I also understand downvoting factually incorrect posts or upvoting correct ones. Some people care more about their karma than others, but at the end of the day, karma's just internet points. Having a higher number is nice, but all it earns is the higher number.

I think making clear exactly how confident you are in an answer to a rules question would be a good step to avoiding downvotes. If you're not sure, just start with "I'm not certain" or "I'm not a judge, but..." I think the negative reactions are to the appearance of certainty when the answer's just a guess, since it can be misleading for new players.

I don't think anyone should be afraid to post a guess to a rules question, but I would like them to state that it's a guess and what they're basing it on. If someone's pretty certain they know the right answer, it would still be nice to know why they're certain.

EDIT: Are there forum rules somewhere about what exactly constitutes appropriate times to upvote and downvote? I'm not sure we really need that, or even how it could be enforced, but at least codifying it would give members a clear understanding of what might lose them karma. As said above, I would be in favor of downvoting inaccurate posts (and removing the downvote once they're corrected). I don't currently do this, but it might give a clear system for alerting newer players to which answer is considered correct by the community.

[STARBREAKER111]

Somewhat related, do the karma points on this site actually mean/affect anything?

They do not as far as I've understood. The title you get below your name (e.g. "Hero Member") on the left is based on the number of posts you've made. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

you are correct, you title is based on number of posts.

[Morganator 2.0]

Somewhat related, do the karma points on this site actually mean/affect anything?

They really do mean nothing, hence why I frequently refer to them as "fake internet points". There is some benefit to this system though. If a post has a low score it indicates that it's offensive or unhelpful. If a user has a low score it means they could be a spammer or scammer. Conversely, upvoting a post or liking a deck is an act of encouragement to the user in question. Otherwise, karma has as much value as you put on it, which can be a lot for some people.

And with that I'd like to give a special thanks to ApothecaryGeist for clearing this up. Not only did you bring an understanding to why people might post an incorrect assessment of the rules, but also what others should do in this situation to be helpful. That is how you build up a strong community. I am really glad you took it upon yourself to do this. I'm also thankful that everyone else here has keep things civil and has come to an understanding. You really are what makes this site great.

That and the stats.