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Author Topic: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?  (Read 1536 times)

Tbf96

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How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« on: March 02, 2022, 10:07:21 pm »
My friend told me that commander decks are categorised in powerlevels (1 -3 being pretty bad, 4 - 7 being casual and 8 - 10 being competetive worthy (so mostly the 9 and 10 being really worth trying)), but how can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
As an example, i  cant really tell the powerlevel of this deck (https://deckstats.net/decks/201498/2452211-obi-wan) only guessing that its a 6 or maybe 7.

Morganator 2.0

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2022, 10:14:50 pm »
So... we gonna open this can of worms again?

Short answer: the scale is completely subjective. It's based on your previous experience with commander. And everyone says their deck is a 7 anyway so it never matters.

We've talked about power levels one or two or three or four times.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 10:19:58 pm by Morganator 2.0 »

Soren841

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2022, 11:44:19 pm »
It's a bigger rabbit hole than I want to go down here.. idk if deckstats has a Discord but I (or someone else) could start one and we can discuss it there all youd like!
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G. Moto

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2022, 01:47:27 am »
It is quite the rabbit hole indeed. Best advice I can give you, how fast and how consistently does the deck either: control the flow of the game/ win games/ how redundant and potent are the synergies in it?

The power scale is subjective but just because your deck is between 1-3 that doesn't mean it's "bad", it could just have a different play focus than other decks.

mynameiscalled

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2022, 08:17:58 am »
There are too many factors to label a decks so-called "powerlevel" It depends on the player who plays it, the meta that the deck is played in and so on and so on. My recommendation is don't get obsessed with such nonsense.

binniwienie

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2022, 09:44:50 am »
as others have mentioned, the consistency at which your deck 'pops off' or presents a win is a big factor. The use of (expensive) staples is also a good indicator, think of cards like sol ring, crypt, worldly tutor, dockside...
Your deck for example doesn't seem to present a threat before turn 7-8 (I also couldn't see an infinite line, is that correct?)

In my playgroup we are experimenting with a custom made powerlevel calculator which gives an rough idea of powerlevel based on certain factors such as fast ramp, average cmc, cheap tutors etc...
It doesn't really follow the traditional 1-10 scale, but decks with similar scores should be well balanced against each other.

I attached it below, feel free to try it and let me know what you think!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 12:01:11 pm by binniwienie »

robort

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2022, 02:39:22 pm »
Like it has been said that power level is subjective and even misleading. I have an 8 power level deck and it is way underpowered while I say I have a 6 and it is way overpowered. Then others would say no that isn't an 8 or a 6 it is a (Choose a number). If I am with regulars of my play groups they now know what my decks do. Someone new I show my commander and let them read what it does and then I will give a description of what my deck does. For example when I am playing Hans Eriksson I say "It puts out big dumb Timmy creatures and just swings. It has no interactions against other decks and basically get out my good stuff and swing." During a game I will point out cards I play that need to be taking care of for instance like Pathbreaker Ibex or Worldspine Wurm. So using power level numbers just isn't the best idea.
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Soren841

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2022, 02:42:33 pm »
I will be working on getting my tier list up to date, but keep in mind that commanders are in a specific tier due to their best deck(s), not just any old deck with a certain commander slapped on it.
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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2022, 03:18:27 pm »
In my playgroup we are experimenting with a custom made powerlevel calculator which gives an rough idea of powerlevel based on certain factors such as fast ramp, average cmc, cheap tutors etc...
It doesn't really follow the traditional 1-10 scale, but decks with similar scores should be well balanced against each other.

I attached it below, feel free to try it and let me know what you think!

My Kynaios and Tiro hug deck with a weak combo got 11.78

My Scarab God deck that has no combos, a stronger interactive element, and is absolutely the stronger deck got an 9.34

My fringe competitive Krenko deck that's better than both of these got 14.29

And cEDH Edric got 15.70

Works mostly well. I tried doing the same thing a little while back and also ran into some issues. Don't get too hung up on it.



So Tbf96, I'm going to try to give a more helpful and accurate assessment of the deck you posted.

First, there doesn't seem to be a focused strategy at all. There are big creatures, things with amass, +1/+1 counters, and whatever Discontinuity is supposed to be for. Not that any of this is a bad thing, just that stronger decks do have some idea of a gameplan.

Next up, the card quality isn't great. There are a lot of junk commons like Heightened Reflexes, Drowsing Tyrannodon, and Ferocious Tigorilla that just don't work well in a multiplayer format where everyone has 40 life.

On the upside there are a few bomb cards like Phylath, World Sculptor and Apex Devastator. You'll get the occasional flashy play in.

All in all, this looks like a pre-con level deck, so if I had to use a 10-point scale I'd give it a 2, and there might be an argument for 3.

binniwienie

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2022, 03:46:02 pm »
In my playgroup we are experimenting with a custom made powerlevel calculator which gives an rough idea of powerlevel based on certain factors such as fast ramp, average cmc, cheap tutors etc...
It doesn't really follow the traditional 1-10 scale, but decks with similar scores should be well balanced against each other.

I attached it below, feel free to try it and let me know what you think!

My Kynaios and Tiro hug deck with a weak combo got 11.78

My Scarab God deck that has no combos, a stronger interactive element, and is absolutely the stronger deck got an 9.34

My fringe competitive Krenko deck that's better than both of these got 14.29

And cEDH Edric got 15.70

Works mostly well. I tried doing the same thing a little while back and also ran into some issues. Don't get too hung up on it.



So Tbf96, I'm going to try to give a more helpful and accurate assessment of the deck you posted.

First, there doesn't seem to be a focused strategy at all. There are big creatures, things with amass, +1/+1 counters, and whatever Discontinuity is supposed to be for. Not that any of this is a bad thing, just that stronger decks do have some idea of a gameplan.

Next up, the card quality isn't great. There are a lot of junk commons like Heightened Reflexes, Drowsing Tyrannodon, and Ferocious Tigorilla that just don't work well in a multiplayer format where everyone has 40 life.

On the upside there are a few bomb cards like Phylath, World Sculptor and Apex Devastator. You'll get the occasional flashy play in.

All in all, this looks like a pre-con level deck, so if I had to use a 10-point scale I'd give it a 2, and there might be an argument for 3.

Yeah graveyard strats aren't really incorporated in the formula (thats probably why your scarab god scored lower than it should)
I'm still working out how to adjust the formula for that, any ideas? :p

Soren841

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2022, 04:50:14 pm »
You need to incorporate avg cmc, ramp (avg cmc, net mana gain, possibly summoning sick, synergy), wincons (how many combos, paths, card slots, actual wincons), redundancy, tutors, draws (big draw spells vs cantrips as well), possibly some way to rate mana efficiency of cards (and in turn the entire deck), recursion and interaction or ways to prevent interaction, power level and consistency of the commander (because it's always available), and the relation of the deck and its strategy to that commander, and ideally some way to measure focus. If there was a standardized way to get the avg goldfish of a deck (unbiased), that could theoretically be incorporated as well. Card quality is sort of related to some of those points as well but it can be subjective and situational. And the quality of the manabase.
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Morganator 2.0

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2022, 04:53:07 pm »
Yeah graveyard strats aren't really incorporated in the formula (thats probably why your scarab god scored lower than it should)
I'm still working out how to adjust the formula for that, any ideas? :p

If you wanted to discuss this more you can either make it its own topic, or tack it on to the last time we had this discussion, found here:

https://deckstats.net/forum/index.php/topic,58447.msg175014.html#msg175014

This topic should be about Tbf96's request.

Soren841

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2022, 04:54:28 pm »
Yeah graveyard strats aren't really incorporated in the formula (thats probably why your scarab god scored lower than it should)
I'm still working out how to adjust the formula for that, any ideas? :p

If you wanted to discuss this more you can either make it its own topic, or tack it on to the last time we had this discussion, found here:

https://deckstats.net/forum/index.php/topic,58447.msg175014.html#msg175014

This topic should be about Tbf96's request.

Join the Discord! I'll gladly spend hours discussing this
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anjinsan

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Re: How can i tell what powerlevel my deck has?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2022, 02:15:05 pm »
Tl;dr, you can't.

There isn't actually such a thing as "power level", but we can mostly pretend that there is. However, it's impossible to calculate such a thing accurately, and it's also not the only thing that matters - think about consistency. A wildly unpredictable swingy deck might win very quickly on good starting hands but fail completely other times, or you might have a very powerful deck that's completely shut down by certain "silver bullets" that it has no way of dealing with (for example, many reanimator decks, or my own Acererak deck which is probably higher-end casual but dies to anti-storm type stuff).

Still, in an attempt to assess your deck...
  • It doesn't really seem to have a clear focus. I'm not sure what the plan is, honestly (there's some counters stuff, but it's not universal). Your commander says, let's play creatures, you can't stop me, they have trample, I will trample you with uncounterable big creatures. But then you have a lot of random non-creature spells that don't seem to support this strategy. It kinda looks like you just threw a lot of good cards you like together, which is fine, but not going to be powerful.
  • It has a relatively high average CMC but only 30(!) lands and not much ramp. A lot of the time I think you will be stuck with expensive cards in hand and no way to cast them.
  • It has a few powerful cards (mostly expensive "bombs") but also some rather weak cards.
  • Your removal suite is kinda weird. I don't think you have any wipes, you have like a fight spell and the mana-intensive Turn to Slag, then you have a couple of enchantments which are actually OK but don't seem super on-theme. Return to Nature is fine here.
  • You have a couple of random instants and counterspells that seem kinda odd. Why Lofty Denial? This isn't a fliers deck. Why Inscription of Insight? What does that do for you? Usually with a deck like this you probably are playing battlecruiser, dropping big threats on your turn, so you won't have mana to hold up for counterspells and if you do you risk not playing anything at all.
  • You have some card draw, but not real repeatable engines or anything that's that good.

As a result, I think this is probably weighing in below many precons; the card quality is similar on average, maybe (precons have a lot of chaff, but usually some good stuff too, or stuff that's OK except for being a bit mana-intensive), but precons tend to have a clearer theme and also actually better (if not brilliant) removal. I don't think a number is useful, honestly, but if you really want one, it's probably like 3 or something.

I would think of PL 6-7 decks as not necessarily having combo wins or the very best cards but probably having healthy ramp, removal and draw suites and possibly tutors or powerful cards like Docksides or whatever but more likely just playing them for value. This doesn't really have any of that so is definitely lower. If the manabase meant you could actually play stuff, maybe this could be a 4-5 because you do have a couple of powerful cards there, but right now I think it will struggle even to do, like, anything, which implies it's a level or two lower still.

(Pulling some random hands, I really struggle to have useful stuff to play turns 3-4, it's mostly land, pass, land, pass, and I sometimes have to work even just to get some draft chaff type creature out)

Now obviously if you're on a budget or whatever maybe even swapping Shock for Lightning Bolt etc is not worth it, so fine, I'm not judging or anything, this is just an assessment. You may not want to make this deck any more powerful - if you are playing against similar decks, no worries.

However, I would suggest upgrading the manabase, which can be done cheaply, because I think this will just be un-fun otherwise. Honestly, cut some of the chaff and just replace it with lands. You can probably find a list of "best ramp" and just go down it in order until you find things you have or can afford (or just proxy) and slot in a couple of pieces. Sword of the Animist can be great, Farhaven Elf is totally serviceable, but you could surely put in Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, Wild Growth, Overgrowth, maybe some other two-mana ramp options. Also there are plenty of budget dual lands which help with colour fixing a bit - I suggest filter lands like Fire-Lit Thicket, maybe bouncelands like Gruul Turf.
EDIT: Huh, turns out those filter lands are less budget than I thought. Maybe people are catching on? Still, other options do exist.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 02:41:47 pm by anjinsan »