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Author Topic: Thoughts on forfeiting in response  (Read 423 times)

Morganator 2.0

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Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« on: July 25, 2022, 09:53:53 pm »
I tried real hard to make that title as unbiased as possible. I'm used to hearing this move called "salty scooping", "petty scooping", "spite scooping", and other similar terms. For example, let's say you're about to swing for lethal with your Toski, Bearer of Secrets deck. Your opponent forfeits the game in response to deny you the card draw. Or say you're trying to combo using Dockside Extortionist and the player with the most artifacts/enchantments scoops their cards so you don't get as many treasures.

First off, what is your opinion on this? Is it petty, or is it a legitimate tactic?

Second, do you have any stories you'd like to share? Has this happened to you or have you done it?

Third, while it's fully within the scope of the rules to conceed whenever you wish, do you think there should be some social contract or house rules that forbid this? Why or why not?

Schau

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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2022, 09:58:35 pm »
I personally just find it irritating, sure it's technically legal and I can't stop you, but in the case of toski/dockside which you mentioned, the opponent is denying you resources which you rightfully earned
my final thoughts are, sure it's legal, but please don't
I won't try and stop you from doing so but I would really appreciate if you don't concede to deny me something

Slyvester12

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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2022, 10:13:38 pm »
It's not a tactic. Losing the game intentionally doesn't help you somehow win. At that point, you're just trying to play kingmaker out of salt. Sure, it's a legal move and I can't stop you, but I'm not shuffling up for another game. I don't like children, and I definitely don't want to play with someone who acts like a child when they lose.

Even if it's just scooping before lethal damage, why? If my opponent is going to take another 3+ turns to win, I might scoop to get more games in. But if they're swinging for lethal, they earned it. Just let it happen and play again. For me, it's the equivalent of flipping the Monopoly board when you land on a stacked property or something. If you can't handle losing, go play with someone else because I'm not going to sandbag just to keep you civil.
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AndReal

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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2022, 10:32:38 pm »
I don't find it so rude to "concede in response"... I mean, most of the time, when my opponents (or I) concede this way, this is because it already feels like you have no escape since 8 turns ago and you're just waiting for death so that you can have another game. To me, the most irritating thing in this particular kind of situation is not that the looser denies the mega-win combo, it's that the winner has this attitude like : "Hey ! look how much I'm able to destroy you by gaining infinite life and make you loose by an infinite channel fireball in your face" even when the loosers has 2 HP and could be beat with a regularly mana paid fireball. Like... Ok, we get it this combo is cool, but was it really necessary to show off ? Leave some dignity to your opponent... In my opinion, it's much more pleasant to loose facing an opponent with humility. Magic is much funnier when the victory is uncertain until the last moment !

Tough, if there has been a real fight for the win and the combo gets off as a deus ex machina twist of situation and the looser surrenders just because he doesn't like that... Well, yeah, not fun, it was a good game, well fought, you lost in honor so let them combo out.

robort

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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2022, 02:21:35 am »
Our playgroups find it petty. Scooping because of being salty just changes the dynamics and the outcome for the game. An example I like to do is when a player sends say 10 creatures my way and I have only 2 to block with making the other 8 lethal. I will always finish out the combat phase for stuff you've mentioned such as card draw, death triggers and so forth. Now if the whole table knows you are way out in front and there is nothing that honestly can be done to actually stop or slow you down. Then the whole table scoops and you win lets start another game, But scooping out of salty spite is frowned upon.
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Morganator 2.0

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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2022, 04:20:16 am »
I don't find it so rude to "concede in response"... I mean, most of the time, when my opponents (or I) concede this way, this is because it already feels like you have no escape since 8 turns ago and you're just waiting for death so that you can have another game.

That's not quite what I'm talking about. I was thinking on the lines of conceeding for the sake of denying an opponent the win, or preventing them from some sort of extra advantage. A situation where someone conceeding will change the outcome of the game. Conceeding because you know they're going to win anyway is a different situation.



I'm against this move. "Petty scooping" is accurate. It really is just spite. There is one situation where there is some amount of strategy here, and that's when it's a multiplayer tournament and you know that the person you're screwing over is in the lead. Two issues though: first, standings in a tournament should not be public. Second, I still think you shouldn't do it. They earned their victory over you and deserve any rewards from it, be it a few cards drawn or their combo.

So I do have a story for when this happened to me. It was about 5 years ago. I was playing a three-person cEDH game as Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, versus Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons and Teferi, Temporal Archmage. I shut down Teferi pretty easily with Null Rod, and then later Ruric Thar's damage. I wasn't going to atrack Hapatra, she has deathtouch snakes. Likewise, Hapatra wanted to put -1/-1 counters on my mana dorks, so Teferi was an easy target to attack into. We were kinda beating into them.

I announce I'm going to combat, and the Teferi player scoops. If they had conceeded at any other time I would have been okay with it, but they waited until combat and then kindly pointed out that Ruric Thar now has to attack into deathtouch snakes. They knew what they were doing.

I do think that conceeding in this way should be discouraged. I know of some groups that have implemented a house rule where you can only forfeit at sorcery speed. I've found that peer pressure works really well. Just pointing out that it's looked down upon discourages people from doing it again.

MustaKotka

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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2022, 06:04:54 am »
I only know that conceding is the losing move. According to any game theory it's the only play that is guaranteed to lose you the game. I will kindly point that out to whoever is doing the malicious scooping. I will also kindly point out that they're stupid for doing so.

While I do hope people scoop at sorcery speed I will continue to play and not pretend they're scooping at any other time. I know some pods will give you the resources that would have been lost due to someone scooping.

I'm honestly not irritated because I lose the game to someone's kingmaking - what irks me the most is illogical plays, not out of ignorance. If someone is willingly and knowingly making an idiotic play it's going to get to me. In general I like to separate games from other life things. If you don't like my face let me know and I'll go elsewhere but don't bring that into the game, please.
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CleanBelwas

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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2022, 09:14:57 am »
My playgroup, like many others, have the house rule that you can only scoop at sorcery speed.

We rationalise it like this:

Being able to scoop at instant speed is a rule that was made before multiplayer was a big deal.

In 1v1 it makes sense. If you recognise that there is no way back for you, scooping amounts to the same thing. There is one winner and one loser, and the game ends immediately. You've saved time on your game(s) and can move on to the next one.

In multiplayer that is not the case. If you scoop, the game could (and likely would) continue for some time afterwards, and any resources and advantage that opponents could have accrued could (and likely would) be relevant to that portion of the game. To us, we feel that if the rule were written today with multiplayer in mind, it would only allow it at sorcery speed. Moreover, we feel that when we are playing, we want to play against the full potential of that deck. If that deck was designed to draw cards with combat (like Toski) then we need to allow that combat to happen and try and beat it regardless, not exercise a loophole in the rules to shaft one player in particular.

I'm all for spite and grudges and all that fun stuff in commander, but I feel it works best when it is within the context of decks performing as intended. If resource denial is a thing you want your deck to do, it should cost mana, not be a salty response to getting your ass kicked.

ApothecaryGeist

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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2022, 07:57:08 pm »
I do find this to be a rather scummy move.  Much like when you swing at the open player with a small lifelink creature, or one with a card draw trigger.  It's a reward for the accomplishment.  You've made that play for the reward.  Scooping prior to the damage is just spiteful.


Many times when that has happened to me, I was relying on those resources to deal with my remaining two opponents.  Suddenly I've been denied those resources, but player 1 is still out of the game.  Since I didn't gain my advantage, the board now grinds to a halt with the other three players.  Player 1 is now moping around and griping that we haven't ended the game yet.  And I just say, "well SOMEBODY denied me all those resources a while back."  A Karmic consolation prize.


My personal code of conduct is that I do not concede in a multiplayer match.  It is fun when I am able to defeat all my opponents.  I assume that others find a joyful sense of completion in this as well.


One exception is when the entire table scoops.  Like when Player A casts a Torment of Hailfire for a bazillion.  The remaining players all talk amongst ourselves.  "I can't stop that."  "I can't recover from that."  "Let's just say he wins."  ok.  Game over.  You win.  Let's all shuffle up and play again.


I would actually like to see a new entry in the comprehensive rules that would make it so that in a multiplayer setting if a player concedes the game, that it does not deprive any of the remaining players from any resources or triggers that they may have gotten as a result of combat with that player or as a result of moving through the phases of that players turn.  Something to that effect to negate spite scooping.  While also allowing for Timmy to leave the game immediately when his mother calls.
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Re: Thoughts on forfeiting in response
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2022, 10:04:31 pm »
It annoys me greatly. If I've earned something off of it, you're now denying me those effects which to me is against the intention of the game. I've had this cost me games. For instance, in my Skullbriar deck where I was about to swing and the player conceded, I did not get the counters because technically no combat damage was dealt to the player. This cost me four counters which would have been enough to put me over the amount of General Damage to kill the one remaining player on my next turn. It then put me in a situation where I needed an additional turn to take out that player, which I didn't get because they drew into their combo on the very turn they were bought by the other player conceding.

My normal playgroup, most of us go down swinging. If you're attacking me for lethal but I can block and kill some of your creatures before I die then you best believe I'm doing it.
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