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Author Topic: Cards that Might be TOO Popular  (Read 469 times)

jlutzxinc

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Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« on: November 20, 2022, 09:02:55 pm »
I haven't posted in a long time, so here goes; I make a lot of sort-of-bad reference lists, and I get stuck VERY easily.

For several years (I know, it doesn't look like it), I've been making a list of cards that would probably be in EVEN MORE Decks if playgroups didn't keep banning them.
The CURRENT reason is that I'm trying NOT to make a pure "goodstuff" Deck and I'm stuck because I don't LIKE using subpar cards.

The ORIGINAL reason was that I wanted to find a Green card for the set of Magistrate, Hullbreacher (now Notion), Opposition and Dockside; likely Ilysian Grove.

(I was thinking Eternal Witness or maybe Loaming Shaman, but they're not AS good as the first four).

What other cards are SO good that you'd rather see FEWER of them, and what cards in my list AREN'T as popular as they look?  (I'm thinking Spellskite, but I HAVE seen that one A LOT).
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 03:39:40 am by jlutzxinc »

Morganator 2.0

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2022, 10:33:55 pm »
I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to make here. From what I understand:

  • This is a list of cards that frequently get banned in playgroups.
  • It is not just pure goodstuff.
  • You want a green creature that's on-par in strength to Dockside Extortionist, Drannith Magistrate, Notion Thief, and Opposition Agent. That would be Seedborn Muse.
  • This is supposed to be cards that are so good that we would like to see less of them.
  • You would also like us to name cards currently on the list that aren't as popular as they look.
  • These cards are in almost every commander deck you've seen.
  • This is not a staples list.

These requirements seem kinda contradictory. It's hard to believe there are playgroups that would want to ban Opt or Farseek. This isn't supposed to be a staples list, but many of these cards are staples in their colours.

I'm sure I could help populate this list, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to suggest cards that I see all the time and simultaneously aren't staples.

jlutzxinc

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2022, 03:20:42 am »
I meant what I said: it's not "just" a list of staples because that would be a thousand cards long, and I'm documenting some "goodstuff" cards that I'd otherwise end up using in every Deck just like I see others do.  The bit about bannings was in regard to cards like Teferi's Protection, Fierce Guardianship, and the four broken Creatures, mainly; that's where the list started, and some other "popular" stuff got added to it.  Also, I'm tired of seeing Opt in every Deck EVEN IF it's not banworthy.

Seedborn Muse is very good, but I wanted something with similar mana value; if it was a set of EXPENSIVE Creatures Green has a LOT of options.  It's possible that no such card exists, and that would be why I couldn't find one.  I'll be using Dryad of the Ilysian Grove, because that's the card I see the most that has similar cost to the others; it just FELT wrong to me.  I'll add Seedborn Muse too, but not for the same reason.

EDIT: Some changes made, including the Deck title; hopefully the new title is less confusing.  I also swapped Opt for Brainstorm (duh).
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 03:50:42 am by jlutzxinc »

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2022, 05:51:53 pm »
I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to suggest cards I see all the time that aren't staples. I'm also not entirely sure about the difference between "nope" and "dodge", nor what " 'ramp' " is.

So I'm just gonna list off a bunch of cards I see frequently and let you decide where on the list they go (if they go on).

Ramp

Ancient Tomb
Arbor Elf
Avacyn's Pilgrim
Bloom Tender
Cabal Coffers
Carpet of Flowers
Chromatic Lantern
Chrome Mox
Crypt Ghast
Dark Ritual
Elves of Deep Shadow
Elvish Mystic
Faeburrow Elder
Fellwar Stone
Fyndhorn Elves
Generator Servant
Goblin Anarchomancer
High Tide
Ilysian Caryatid
Liquimetal Torque
Llanowar Elves
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
The Medallion cycle (ex: Sapphire Medallion)
Mirari's Wake
Mox Opal
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Shaman of Forgotten Ways
Signet cycle (ex: Boros Signet)
Simian Spirit Guide
Somberwald Sage
Talisman cycle (ex: Talisman of Curiosity)
Treasonous Ogre
Wild Growth

Card Draw (and similar things)

Beast Whisperer
Bolas's Citadel
Cut a Deal
Dark Confidant
Deadly Dispute
Dig Through Time
Elemental Bond
Fact or Fiction
Flumph
Guardian Project
Mystic Remora
Necropotence
Oakhame Adversary
Phyrexian Arena
Reforge the Soul
Rishkar's Expertise
Scroll Rack
Sensei's Divining Top
Shamanic Revelation
Skullclamp
Sylvan Library
Treasure Cruise
Wheel of Fate
Wheel of Misfortune
Windfall

Removal

Abrade
Baleful Mastery
Beast Within
Caustic Caterpillar (Haywire Mite in the near future)
Chaos Warp
Darksteel Mutation (and similar cards)
Deadly Rollick
Dismember
Expel from Orazca
Force of Vigor
Generous Gift
Gilded Drake
Hero's Downfall
Mogg Salvage
Nature's Claim
Pongify
Rapid Hybridization
Reality Shift
Resculpt
Shattering Spree
Ulvenwald Tracker
Wear // Tear

Boardwipes

All is Dust
Bane of Progress
Chandra's Ignition
Damnation
Dead of Winter
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (close enough to a boardwipe)
Fade From History (in the near future)
Farewell
Kindred Dominance
Merciless Eviction
Supreme Verdict
Time Wipe
Vanquish the Horde
Wrath of God


Counterspells

An Offer You Can't Refuse
Arcane Denial
Counterspell
Delay
Dispel
Force of Negation
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Mental Misstep
Negate
Pact of Negation
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Stubborn Denial
Swan Song
Tibalt's Trickery


Protection

Allosaurus Shepherd
Bolt Bend
Boros Charm
Flawless Maneuver
Giver of Runes
Grand Abolisher
Guardian Augmenter
Heroic Intervention
Kaya's Ghostform
Lightning Greaves
Mother of Runes
Plaza of Heroes
Selfless Spirit
Shalai, Voice of Plenty
Silence
Spellskite
Swiftfoot Boots
Sylvan Safekeeper
Veil of Summer
Vexing Shusher
Whispersilk Cloak


Stax

Aven Mindcensor
Back to Basics
Blood Moon (and Magus of the Moon)
Collector Ouphe
Crawlspace
Gaddock Teeg
Ghostly Prison
Propaganda
Rest in Peace
Sphere of Safety
Winter Orb

Tutors

Birthing Pod (more of a win-con than tutor, I'll admit)
Chord of Calling
Crop Rotation
Demonic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fabricate
Gamble
Imperial Recruiter
Mystical Tutor
Profane Tutor
Recruiter of the Guard
Spellseeker
Sunforger
The T-Mages (ex: Trinket Mage)
Vampiric Tutor
Wishclaw Talisman
Worldly Tutor


Cards on your list that I don't see that often

Consider
Fateful Absence (possibly because it's just new)
Opt
Play with Fire
Pull from Eternity
Unsummon
Winds of Abandon
Wrenn and Six

Do with this info, as you wish.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 06:43:23 pm by Morganator 2.0 »

jlutzxinc

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2022, 10:37:56 pm »
I apologize for the delay, but I just now got enough time to review some of your suggestions, and yes, some of them are cards I also see often, but many are not; in fact, I've never heard of Generator Servant or Sylvan Safekeeper (but that's probably because they're prima facie terrible...I'm sure they have some hidden value), nor Expel from Orazca or Goblin Anarchomancer (but those are surprisingly good and I might have to use them myself).

Swan Song I'd think is too popular; yes, it's one mana, but it could still have had a better drawback in exchange...as is it's so specific that I'd never want to use it.  I should add Chromatic Lantern because I overuse that card, but I do very much love it...hmm...

Thank you very much for bearing with me and trying to provide useful input in spite of the limited criteria.

Landale

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2022, 03:18:39 am »
in fact, I've never heard of Generator Servant or Sylvan Safekeeper (but that's probably because they're prima facie terrible...I'm sure they have some hidden value),
Haste enabling mana and instant speed protection are terrible?

anjinsan

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2022, 09:32:39 pm »
I echo the previous comments; I'm not quite sure what you're going for here, it sounds like basically "cards that we see too often"?

I'm not sure I've ever seen Generator Servant, but I can see where you'd use it. Sylvan Safekeeper is I think well-known as a pretty powerful card, though. It's one of those ones that's pretty not good in more casual decks because the cost is so high (saccing a land), but it's well worth it in many situations. And, honestly, even casual decks would probably choose to lose a land over many creatures, especially in the late game. People will happily sac a land to dig a card deeper into their library, so why not sac a card to keep an eldrazi or Etali or something around? What makes this really good though is the zero mana cost and no need to tap; as many times as you like, at instant, you can just nope something that would remove any of your creatures.

Swan Song is not exactly very specific; it counters the majority of things that most people really want to counter, which is instants and sorceries. You're probably not taking this to stop someone else winning (though many combo cards are counterable with it, as are big win spells like Torment of Hailfire), but to stop them from stopping you winning - I reckon people would pack it even if it just said "counter target counterspell". For 1 mana, that's still pretty great (and the main reason people take things like REB/Pyroblast, noting of course that they can destroy permanents, and of course Veil of Summer).

Expel from Orazca actually feels like the opposite, a card that's somewhat underplayed for how good it is.

jlutzxinc

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2022, 11:38:49 pm »
I echo the previous comments; I'm not quite sure what you're going for here, it sounds like basically "cards that we see too often"?
Essentially, yes; that, and cards that you find yourself using too often.
I'm not sure I've ever seen Generator Servant, but I can see where you'd use it. Sylvan Safekeeper is I think well-known as a pretty powerful card, though. It's one of those ones that's pretty not good in more casual decks because the cost is so high (saccing a land), but it's well worth it in many situations. And, honestly, even casual decks would probably choose to lose a land over many creatures, especially in the late game. People will happily sac a land to dig a card deeper into their library, so why not sac a card to keep an eldrazi or Etali or something around? What makes this really good though is the zero mana cost and no need to tap; as many times as you like, at instant, you can just nope something that would remove any of your creatures.
I admit bias because my playgroup LOVES removal (and especially wipes), but Creatures without Indestructible and/or "can't be Countered" (and tappers without Haste) are WAY too easy to get rid of without the caster ever getting to use them.  For Generator Servant specifically, Hall of the Bandit Lord does the same thing but is far less likely to be worthless (and can also be done more than once), and I wouldn't use that either; enabling mass Haste is not expensive enough more to justify it.
Swan Song is not exactly very specific; it counters the majority of things that most people really want to counter, which is instants and sorceries. You're probably not taking this to stop someone else winning (though many combo cards are counterable with it, as are big win spells like Torment of Hailfire), but to stop them from stopping you winning - I reckon people would pack it even if it just said "counter target counterspell". For 1 mana, that's still pretty great (and the main reason people take things like REB/Pyroblast, noting of course that they can destroy permanents, and of course Veil of Summer).
So you'd only use it if you were going to win anyway?  My point stands; it's not that good.  At least those others work on ANY Blue threat, and not only the ones that interrupt your combo.
Expel from Orazca actually feels like the opposite, a card that's somewhat underplayed for how good it is.
I concur; I put it into a Deck that I already wanted to make but conveniently got around to making immediately after seeing that reply, immediately after seeing that reply.  (Yes, that sentence does make sense; read it again, slowly).

MustaKotka

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2022, 02:42:22 am »
Hot take here: Rhystic Study. At this point in our group it's just a stax piece and I don't necessarily want that; I want cards. I've started to replace it with other cards.
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jlutzxinc

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2022, 01:25:15 pm »
Hot take here: Rhystic Study. At this point in our group it's just a stax piece and I don't necessarily want that; I want cards. I've started to replace it with other cards.
I feel that calling it "stax" is a bit strong, but I agree with the other part.  I try not to use cards like that no matter how popular (justified or not) they are because I don't like effects that let my opponents pick whether they resolve.  I want my opponents to interact when they can, and to do whatever I want when they can't.  I'm likely to add that to my list when I get a chance.

anjinsan

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Re: Cards that Might be TOO Popular
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2022, 02:08:47 pm »
I admit bias because my playgroup LOVES removal (and especially wipes), but Creatures without Indestructible and/or "can't be Countered" (and tappers without Haste) are WAY too easy to get rid of without the caster ever getting to use them.  For Generator Servant specifically, Hall of the Bandit Lord does the same thing but is far less likely to be worthless (and can also be done more than once), and I wouldn't use that either; enabling mass Haste is not expensive enough more to justify it.
If your playgroup loves removal, then Sylvan Safekeeper goes up in usefulness. I'm not convinced by Generator Servant, myself, but anything that gives haste can be very potent (I think I, too, would rather use Hall of the Bandit Lord, but it does enter tapped and take up a land slot). The idea with this guy is that you play him one turn, then next turn you only need 4 mana for Etali who gets to swing right away (or insert big creature/eldrazi/whatever of your choice here). And are people going to use spot removal on that guy? Maybe (if your command is Etali, anyway!), but even if your playgroup use a lot of removal, do they want to use spot removal on every two-drop they see?

So you'd only use it if you were going to win anyway?  My point stands; it's not that good.
I don't quite understand... I'd use it to make sure I win. That seems pretty good to me. It also counters most removal and wipes, making it excellent protection (a smidge less than Fierce Guardianship for commander specifically, but still pretty excellent), wincons like Torment of Hailfire, and also Mystic Remora turn 1, Smothering Tithe, etc. There's a reason that people run it in cEDH decks.

Being only 1 mana is huge. There are some zero-mana counterspells, which obviously top that, but holing up 1 blue is not usually too hard, whereas trying to do your thing and also keep 2 open is a lot tougher (and even your 2-mana choices are limited). Maybe in some situations you would rather run Abjure? I can't really think of anything that does what Swan Song does as well as Swan Song does it, though, except Fierce Guardianship if you're a commander-focused deck.