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Author Topic: [EDH] The Scarab God Dimir Reanimator Control  (Read 931 times)

_shift

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[EDH] The Scarab God Dimir Reanimator Control
« on: March 16, 2023, 05:31:05 pm »
Hello again,

I took the shell from my (in my opinion  8)) fairly popular Gale/Scion Dimir Reanimator Control list and tailored it to my long-time favorite legendary creature: The Scarab God. This is not a Dimir Zombies list, it is a draw/go control list, and that's how the primer is written.

With a significant number of games under my belt, I humbly submit my primer and decklist for review:

https://deckstats.net/decks/208321/2860625-scarab-god-dimir-reanimator-co/en#show_description

Thanks.

Morganator 2.0

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Re: [EDH] The Scarab God Dimir Reanimator Control
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2023, 09:58:26 pm »
As you've probably already seen, I also have a Scarab God primer and I also focus on the control aspect rather than the combo or tribal aspects. What I really like about this primer is that you nailed the explanation of how to play The Scarab God. Too often I see other Scabby players activate the ability at sorcery speed and for value, instead of taking advantage of the control aspects. It's nice to know I'm not alone. What's really interesting is that despite us playing the same commander and strategy, our card choices are radically different. There's only a 36 card overlap between our decks.

So I'd mostly want to know your reasoning for not including these cards, as I've found them quite good.

Interaction

Expel from Orazca, Hostage Taker, Meteor Golem: Dimir is kinda starved for artifact and enchantment removal. I'm not about to pretend that Meteor Golem is a good card, but would you consider it for more versatile removal options? How well does this deck fair against artifact and enchantment-based decks?
Notion Thief & Opposition Agent: These two are situational, but their situations come up a lot. Notion Thief can even win games.
Overcharged Amalgam: I use this for the same reason we both use Ertai; dual-purpose counterspell and removal on a creature. What do you think of it?
Sinister Concoction: Don't knock it 'till you've tried it. Milling and discarding a card is more relevant in our decks than others.
Sower of Temptation: I've often wondered if I should use Agent of Treachery instead of this. I know I'll never get to 3 cards owned by opponents, but the unconditional possession of something is nice. The 7 mana hard-cast is not. At least I'm still capable of hard-casting Sower. What are you're thoughts on these pros and cons?
Stubborn Denial: I'm just wondering if you'd rather use this than Swan Song.

Card Advantage/Discard

Ancient Excavation: This is really good draw, and it lets you dump high-cost creatures. Also instant-speed, so it's useful if you didn't already spend that mana controlling the board. I certainly think it would work better than Gruesome Realization.
Awaken the Erstwhile: Do you consider this a combo? It's puts everyone else in top-deck mode, as you'll still have graveyard card advantage, which means you're incredibly likely to win. At least that's how it's been for me.
Cryptbreaker: The best one mana zombie. It provides a bunch of relevant aspects for this deck. It discards cards, gives tokens to help with Scarab God's scrying, and gives card draw. All at instant-speed.
Whispering Madness and Windfall: Wheel effects are really good card draw, especially in a deck that want's cards in the graveyard. What was your reason for excluding them?

Ramp

Crypt Ghast: Is this card not included because of the density of swamps in your build (11 out of 38 lands) versus mine (16 out of 36 lands)?
Dimir Signet, Fellwar Stone, Talisman of Dominance: They are not quite as good as Arcane Signet, but they're only slightly worse. Aren't they good enough for a spot?

Miscellaneous

Demonic Tutor: Is being sorcery-speed a big enough reason to not include it?
Mesmeric Orb: I remember from the Gale primer that you weren't a big fan of mill effects, as you wanted to be more selective about what you put in your graveyard. Is that still the case, or has that changed now that you also have access to things in your opponents' graveyards? Because Mesmeric Orb is easily one of the best cards in my version and one of two common tutor targets (Training Grounds being the other).
Victimize: It gets two creatures instead of one, and most of your other recursion is already sorcery speed. Is the creatures entering tapped a huge downside? Or is it having to sacrifice one of yours that's a problem?



I'd also like to know a little more about how these cards perform for you.

Astral Dragon: What are your typical targets for this? You have it listed under ramp, so I'm guessing it's either lands or rocks that you choose. Is that worth it's 8 mana hard-cast, or 4 mana with Scarab God?
Bolas's Citadel: I love this card, but I've yet to try it out in my build (I expect it to get milled. A lot). Does the lack of lifegain affect it's usability? Can you consistently get the lands out of the way so you can keep casting stuff? Or do you mostly use it to cast instants off of the top of your library?
Feed the Swarm: Does the sorcery-speed ever affect you, or is being able to remove an enchantment more important?
Lethal Scheme: I've been meaning to test this out, but I can't figure out what to cut. How often do you pay full mana for this card? About how much mana do you typically spend to cast it?
Portal to Phyrexia: Is the 9 mana cost a problem? Do you still have enough mana to effectively control the board after playing this spell?
Saw in Half: This card was really hyped up when it was spoiled, but I don't see it that often. I've been trying out Cleaver Skaab, but I'm kinda disappointed in it's performance. How has Saw in Half been working for you?
Sheoldred, the Apocalypse: She's listed as a finisher, but I've always though of her as being very incremental. And you're not using any wheel effects. Does she do a lot of damage on her own?



And lastly, some other strategy-based things I'd like to know about.

How well does this deck operate without The Scarab God? Does the card advantage suffer a lot without the scry and reanimation? Can you still do the control aspect with just instants?

Do you know how fast this deck is? What turn do you typically cast The Scarab God? When does this deck typically win a game (if you pay attention to that). How effectively can it stop combos in the early, mid, or late game?

How often do you use the combat phase? I frequently don't attack and keep blockers instead. Scarab God and Gray Merchant of Asphodel do all the damage I need.

Do you find yourself more often bringing back your creatures with Scabby God or your opponents'? Mix of both?

_shift

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Re: [EDH] The Scarab God Dimir Reanimator Control
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2023, 02:08:58 pm »
Absolutely incredible response Morganator. Let me start tackling this one by one.

  • Expel From Orazca, Hostage Taker, Meteor Golem, (anything else that can hit enchantments/artifacts): I agree with you, Dimir is starved for removal. What we are most worried about here is graveyard hate. There's two types, static and triggered. Triggered effects are going to happen, folks are going to get a Bojuka Bog in or activate their Tormod's Crypt. That's fine. Graveyard hate has gotten incredibly potent over the past several years, just look at Dauthi Voidwalker. We run Disallow and Ertai Resurrected to (hopefully) deal with a backbreaking graveyard exile trigger, but for the most part this is why we selectively place things in our graveyards nowadays through looting, conniving, and entombing instead of greedily milling. So we are most concerned with static effects. Creature based static effects don't really concern us because we can blow those out of the water pretty easily. It's the artifact and enchantment based static graveyard hate we're most afraid of, and specifically meta cards are Grafdigger's Cage, Ground Seal, Rest in Peace, and Leyline of the Void. Now we get into our local metas. I nearly never see these cards in my playgroup (your mileage may vary), and there's only 4 cards here total I'm actually terrified of. We're now in a situation where someone is playing these cards, has them in hand, and is able to resolve them against my counterspells. 3 of the 4 are <= 2CMC, and can be easily dealt with with Blast Zone, which I run. Otherwise I am hoping to get my Cyclonic Rift or Venser, Shaper Savant to bounce it and counter it on recast. Theoretically, if I was seeing these cards pop up constantly in my meta I would add Karn's Silex and Filigree Silex next, as these can wipe those low CMC static graveyard threats as easily as Blast Zone, and if I needed to continue to make swaps, would start looking at adding more bounce spells such as Expel from Orazca (Although I'd be looking at Geistwave which can function as a pseudo cantripping protection / put an ETB creature back in your hand and also Commit // Memory, since we are usually always trying to hold up 4 mana for a TSG activation and Commit is extremely versatile).
  • Notion Thief and Opposition Agent: Simply a meta call here, TBH. No disagreement from me, these cards can win games. In my playgroup, I try to balance playing control with the fun my friends are having, and they generally hate these types of effects. Also, I try to play with an Aikido mindset at all times, and for this reason Sheoldred, the Apocalypse and Hullbreaker Horror are actually on the chopping block for me - These types of cards that put a blanket aggro out there immediately turn the entire board against you and I'm not looking for that type of aggro until end game.
  • Overcharged Amalgam: Huh, I actually really like this card. Flash flying 3/3 blocker with relevant typing worst case? What do you usually exploit with it? I actually think I may find room for this card.
  • Sower of Temptation: If you are not running Heartless Summoning (I'd have to go check your list), it's a slam dunk for situations like this. Casting Agent at 5 feels fantastic. Also Agent can grab ANYTHING. Grab that Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, Ghostly Prison, or even just a land. This already makes it fantastic. But in any case, I would never be looking to hardcast Agent, but either looting it away or entombing it to the graveyard to cheat it in. On top of all that, You think you'll never get to 3 cards owned by opponents... But kick a Rite of Replication on your Agent and watch the sparks fly. Don't forget that kicker is an ADDITIONAL cost. You can cheat the cost on this and Cyclonic Rift by reanimating your Scholar of the Lost Trove / using your Bolas's Citidel and then paying the additional cost. So you aren't always casting these spells for 7 and 9 if you can help it. But to answer your question: Sower of Temptation is a fine card, but it feels like a magnet to me, your opponent will be looking to snipe the Sower to get their creature back. Against Agent of Treachery, they've already resigned the loss.
  • Stubborn Denial: Actually probably great in a deck full of 4/4 reanimated creatures and a 5/5 commander. I actually think I'd rather use An Offer You Can't Refuse over both (should probably make that swap) as it's not as conditional as Stubborn Denial and can hit artifacts unlike Swan Song (if we're worried about artifact graveyard hate). For the most part I'm only worried about removal / board wipes / winning a counter war, which is what Swan Song excels at.
  • Ancient Excavation: 100% agree. Card is a slam dunk, especially with Sheoldred, the Apocalypse in the deck. I'd consider Ancient Excavation card selection and not card advantage, however. Gruesome Realization is (minor) card advantage stapled to a token wipe. I'd be looking to replace a different card selection / looter spell (maybe a cantrip) and probably will do so in my next revision.
  • Awaken the Erstwhile: Wow, I kinda love this. I'm going to order one. Agree completely with your assessment. You additionally (if you have your commander out) get a huge scry and drain on your upkeep, setting up your next draw better than everyone else.
  • Cryptbreaker: Well, you aren't wrong. I need to try and look at creature's activated abilities as instants in a draw/go plan better. This card would also help my curve. I like it. I'll consider this in my next revision.
  • Whispering Madness, Windfall: You aren't wrong. Probably just personal choice here. In Blue I simply prefer filtering cards into the graveyard (that's why I'm big on Ancient Excavation with you). I'm trying to cultivate my hand with this deck and the card advantage / selection choices I've made. I (usually) don't want to just throw it away and then redraw it. That said your logic is sound, and these cards are a slam dunk / potential wincon with Sheoldred, the Apocalypse floating around in the deck.
  • Crypt Ghast: Correct, I didn't feel I had enough swamps to justify black doublers / Witch's Cottage.
  • Dimir Signet, Fellwar Stone, Talisman of Dominance: There was that whole thing a while black with Sam Black stating mana rocks are a waste in EDH, and all the conversation around it. I wanted to try it out and build decks that do useful things up the curve instead of dropping rocks. I felt like his heart was in the right place, but ultimately I settled on Frank Karsten's analysis:  https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/home/how-many-lands-do-you-need-in-your-deck-an-updated-analysis/. In the end I think you can run the rocks you want to run, you just follow the guidelines Frank sets to make sure you've got the right land base. My current draft revision is actually looking to slot in Dimir Signet and Talisman of Dominance.
  • Demonic Tutor: My current draft revision actually replaces Mystical Tutor with Demonic Tutor. Was just a slight personal call (more instants). I think the flexibility of black tutors wins. EDIT: Mystical Tutor is used to put Cyclonic Rift or Rite of Replication on the top of the library with Bolas's Citadel out, letting you cheat the cost while still paying the kicker.
  • Mesmeric Orb: Yes, this is just my personal philosophy. I could try it again. I absolutely HATE the feeling of milling away some important spell or piece (granted this deck has ways to recur artifacts, instants/sorceries and creatures). Example: Turn 2 play the Orb, turn 3 untap... and mill away your Rhystic Study. OOF. Like I said, I simply prefer cultivating my hand and graveyard through looting and entombing. I also feel like Mesmeric Orb has the potential to aggro the table. Additionally, if you are playing against another graveyard deck, you're potentially helping them. This might be another personal philosophy thing, but I rarely care about other folks reanimation targets. I'll still use TSGs ability at instant speed to break someone's reanimator combo of course, and if there's an absolute bomb in a graveyard I'll try to grab it, but my gameplan is not milling and aggroing everyone at the table hoping to reanimate something juicy. It's to play a draw/go Control deck with an Aikido mindset, laying low, getting my pieces in place, and popping up as an unanswerable archenemy to close out the game.
  • Victimize: The upside is fantastic, like you said. The downside I experienced running this in Gale, and it's why I don't run it in low creature count decks anymore. I cast this card as a desperate move to reanimate some bombs with only Gale out. I planned to sacrifice my Gale. In response to the cast someone Path'ed Gale. Victimize fizzles since now I have no creature to sacrifice. In a low creature count deck, this card feels win-more - you either have enough bodies to safely resolve this spell getting even MORE bodies. Otherwise you struggle to cast it. It's in my Extus / Blood Avatar deck - slam dunk there.
  • Astral Dragon: You never want to hard cast it. (Nearly) always throw it away to a loot effect. It's nuts. If you wanted a combo, just put Machine God's Effigy in the deck to go infinite. I put it in ramp because the floor is hitting a land or rock like you said. But hitting Rhystic Study, or someone's Smothering Tithe, etc., and getting TWO of them... Last Saturday I played this deck and got Portal to Phyrexia out with Beacon of Unrest. Then I reanimated my Astral Dragon to make two more Portals. Won that game.
  • Bolas's Citadel: I actually have not gotten to use this card since adding it to the deck. It's here because we have a lot of huge CMC spells that we're trying to cheat in from the graveyard. Citadel lets you cheat them off the top. Also lets you cheat on Rite of Replication and Cyclonic Rift costs. You pay the spell cost with life, and get to pay the additional kicker cost like normal. Which now reminds me, this is why Mystical Tutor was in the deck. Put Rite or Cyclonic Rift on the top of your library with Citadel out and then cheat it. Duh.
  • Feed the Swarm: I run it for the enchantment removal. I don't think I've ever actually cast this spell since the card's been released, but it's in all my black decks without green or white. I've never been in a situation where it's the one piece of interaction in my hand that I NEED to cast. *Shrug*. I actually may remove it...
  • Lethal Scheme: I wouldn't bother. It's here as a potential free removal spell with looting attached. I've never successfully cast it that way. it suffers from the same problems as Victimize in a low creature count deck. I'm removing it for Deadly Rollick.
  • Portal to Phyrexia: I'm always looting this card away (see the theme?). I'll never cast it for 9 mana. I have successfully reanimated it several times since release. Hitting it with a reanimated Scholar of the Lost Trove is no joke. Getting it out is backbreaking for your opponents, unless they are a token deck. (Old) Sheoldred stapled to a triple edict, what's not to love?
  • Saw in Half: I absolutely love it. Save your The Scarab God from a Path to Exile. Or drop Gary, then saw Gary in Half. Same with Agent of Treachery or any of our other ETBs. Or someone is swinging in with a huge double striker? Stop the damage. Such an insanely flexible card in a control deck that doesn't care about turning creatures sideways.
  • Sheoldred, the Apocalypse: I think you're right. If protected, she is inevitable. She's stabilized me into a winning position SEVERAL times since release. Without the wheels, she is not a shotgun wincon. Incremental, as you said. A component of the inevitability I am going for. That said she draws a ton of aggro. Might get cut alongside Hullbreaker.

Now to answer your final questions.

I believe my shell is fairly resilient. That's the mistake I've made in the past, and I think a lot of people have made when building The Scarab God. The entire deck is value ETBs and outside of dumping them into the graveyard to reanimate with The Scarab God's ability, your deck is now playing at sorcery speed. In this deck, I don't even look to play my commander until T5 or later (even with ramp) - things need to be in graveyards, protection needs to be in hand, and then we move to close. I do not rely on his scry and drain at all (in fact, I CONSTANTLY forget his triggers) - I see that as the same as Sheoldred, the Apocalypse. Incremental, as you said. A component of inevitability in the end game when life totals are low and every point matters.

I think the deck has enough answers to stop mid-power combo decks fairly reliably at any point in the game. This deck is not designed to be high power - it has no fast mana, no infinite combos, and intentionally limited free counterspells. That said, I regularly play against a Queen Marchesa so I am no stranger to needing to stop combos.

The deck typically wins T7 or later (I'd have to start keeping track). I keep repeating it, but it's really about inevitability. I get myself in an untouchable position (full grip, TSG out, Sphinx of the Second Sun out) and from there just grind the table into dust. Or like you said, graveyard is full, Living Death and 10 creatures + Gary comes out. Rite of Replication on Gary or Agent. I rarely if ever turn my creatures sideways. Last game my Sheoldred, Agent, and Gary all got answered. I got TSG and Sphinx out and from there just had to build up my board full of creatures (This was the game I got Portal + Astral Dragon for 2 more portals) to just grind my last opponent out.

Maybe it's a holdover from Covid and webcam magic, but I don't like relying on opponent's graveyards at all. I don't like trying to keep track of the creatures in their graveyards. Relying on myself and my own targets ensures consistency. That said, and like I said earlier, I will still always try to grab an obvious bomb from my opponent, or use TSG's ability to break a graveyard combo.

Whew. Alright, I've done it! Let me know if you have any followups!

Morganator 2.0

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Re: [EDH] The Scarab God Dimir Reanimator Control
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2023, 05:26:10 pm »
Overcharged Amalgam: Huh, I actually really like this card. Flash flying 3/3 blocker with relevant typing worst case? What do you usually exploit with it?

If I'm casting it from hand, I get it to exploit itself (pun not intended). That way it'll be in my in my graveyard so I can use it again with Scarab God. If I've eternalized it (that's my short-hand for describing Scarab God's activated ability) I'll either get it to exploit itself again, or some other expendable creature (like Gravecrawler or a 2/2 zombie token).

But kick a Rite of Replication on your Agent and watch the sparks fly. Don't forget that kicker is an ADDITIONAL cost. You can cheat the cost on this and Cyclonic Rift by reanimating your Scholar of the Lost Trove / using your Bolas's Citidel and then paying the additional cost. So you aren't always casting these spells for 7 and 9 if you can help it.

While you're right about kicker being an additional cost, overload is an alternative cost. If you're casting it without paying its mana cost through Scholar, Citadel, or some other card, you have to choose the 2 mana option and return a target to its owner's hand. You don't have the option to overload it. This is further clarified in the rulings for Cyclonic Rift, Scholar of the Lost Trove, and Bolas's Citadel.



This primer is well written. Just a few more steps. You'll need to incorporate the information above into the notable exclusions if you think it's appropriated. You'll also need to update it based on your new inclusions after you've updated the decklist.

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Re: [EDH] The Scarab God Dimir Reanimator Control
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2023, 06:26:06 pm »
See, I am glad I made this post. I forgot that Cyclonic rift is overload and not kicker and you are correct, so I appreciate that clarification. Additionally, I forgot that a creature with exploit can exploit itself, so yes Overcharged Amalgam is an absolute slam dunk in this deck. I'll leave my post as-is so this back and forth makes sense to folks reading these posts. I will work this weekend to incorporate this conversation into the primer and report back when I'm done.

Edit: I'll probably take out Mystical and replace with Demonic like discussed. In the off chance I line up a Bolas's Citadel and a Vampiric Tutor that should be good enough.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 06:29:04 pm by _shift »

_shift

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Re: [EDH] The Scarab God Dimir Reanimator Control
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2023, 02:07:31 pm »
Overcharged Amalgam: Huh, I actually really like this card. Flash flying 3/3 blocker with relevant typing worst case? What do you usually exploit with it?

If I'm casting it from hand, I get it to exploit itself (pun not intended). That way it'll be in my in my graveyard so I can use it again with Scarab God. If I've eternalized it (that's my short-hand for describing Scarab God's activated ability) I'll either get it to exploit itself again, or some other expendable creature (like Gravecrawler or a 2/2 zombie token).

But kick a Rite of Replication on your Agent and watch the sparks fly. Don't forget that kicker is an ADDITIONAL cost. You can cheat the cost on this and Cyclonic Rift by reanimating your Scholar of the Lost Trove / using your Bolas's Citidel and then paying the additional cost. So you aren't always casting these spells for 7 and 9 if you can help it.

While you're right about kicker being an additional cost, overload is an alternative cost. If you're casting it without paying its mana cost through Scholar, Citadel, or some other card, you have to choose the 2 mana option and return a target to its owner's hand. You don't have the option to overload it. This is further clarified in the rulings for Cyclonic Rift, Scholar of the Lost Trove, and Bolas's Citadel.



This primer is well written. Just a few more steps. You'll need to incorporate the information above into the notable exclusions if you think it's appropriated. You'll also need to update it based on your new inclusions after you've updated the decklist.

The decklist and primer have been updated accordingly.