Is Ramp Too Good?

[Morganator 2.0]

I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.

What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Same! As non-native speaker of English: very difficult sentences, guys and girls! I have no idea what you're talking about! I know it concerns mana ramp, Sol Ring, possibly the count of lands all in EDH! I know (and you know probably) I'm bit more casual with this format. I respect each and every one of you and have looked at your decks. I might get lotta downvotes, but with these quotes and all the lengthy replies: what the Hell is going on?! What all of you are trying to prove to each other in cEDH?

[Bonethousand]

Also ngl, I tried to read everything but ended up skimming after a while because of the repetitive arguments, so forgive me if this has already been talked about. I can't speak for all players, but I really feel like this discussion is missing the dominant point of ramp here. Everyone keeps talking about ramp in terms of acceleration, but as lots of people have correctly pointed out: ramp is much less common in other formats. So we have to ask, why? And I don't think the answer that "edh is splashier and plays bigger spells" is a true one; it just feels true because of how we tend to look at ramp.

In my experience, acceleration is like 30% of it. Sure, every once in a while someone fast tracks a Craterhoof to close out the game too quickly, or a Genesis Ultimatum that absolutely takes over the board; however, this is pretty rare for my pod. Moreover, you have three opponents now hyperfocused on cleaning up or disrupting your splashy spell. The way I look at ramp (only since recently) is about access to multi-spelling. In a four person game, you're behind if you're only casting one spell per turn, even if that spell is a really good one. How many times have you been stuck on three mana so you're forced to play one creature and say go, when you really wanted to cast another spell to trigger an ability of that creature? Then, the board gets wiped and you've basically been timewalked. You don't just need access to mana to cast big plays, but also early on to have flexibility.

Outside of fast ramp, which explicitly exists to unfairly put you ahead of your opponents, I think ramp is a necessary component of how multiplayer works. It's inextricable from the format, and if it's removed then you're shoehorned back into kitchen table magic where top decking is the main factor in determining games. Ramp allows you to have strategy in your turns as well as keep open mana for answers to game ending threats that can appear suddenly.

[Valmias]

I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.

What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.

I have no idea. I think it's just an argument against fast mana, but with all ramp being too fast. I find it a difficult hypothetical to parse, and I feel like the goalposts keep moving.

Anjinsan, if the goal is to have slower games, then you can just play less ramp. If the goal is to beat players faster, and you think you have to use more ramp, then do that. If you think it sucks that you have to use ramp when you don't want to because other people are going to... well, I can't help with that. I personally disagree. I already gave examples of decks that I use with very little ramp that work just fine. If the benchmark is a win on turn 1-3, we're definitely talking about cEDH and that's not typical play. If the argument is that top-tier decks use a lot of ramp, then yes, that's probably the case, but not every deck is meant to be (or ever could be) top-tier.

But in answer to the original question: Is ramp too good? No. What would EDH look like with only weak mana rocks? Currently competitive decks would be slower, and many weaker decks would become fully nonviable (I ain't playing Gabriel Angelfire if I have to wait until turn 7 or later). Competitive players would not take the moment to appreciate a slower pace of game, but would push the meta further toward lower-mana strategies, and any commander over 3 cmc would be too slow to seriously consider. The game would contract to a smaller pool of playable cards, and then we would be on here complaining about low cmc commanders and how we miss the days when we could play big spells. But unless this is actually up for proposal, I don't fully see the point in considering it beyond just ruminating on the function of ramp (which, to be fair, can be fun).

[Valmias]

Ah. My mistake. Anjinsan, I just looked at your decks to see how you build, and your worst deck would probably beat my best one and be bored doing it. If your decks are reflective of the meta you play in, then I understand your perspective better. I would also wish for a world where Cultivate was the standard for ramp.

I think for a lot of people Cultivate is the standard. Maybe you just need to build worse decks? That probably doesn't help.

[UrizenII]

I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.

What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.

I have no idea. I think it's just an argument against fast mana, but with all ramp being too fast. I find it a difficult hypothetical to parse, and I feel like the goalposts keep moving.

Sorry, the more precise I try to get with my language, the more long-winded I get.  Also trying to address multiple people in a single post at a time doesn't help.  In so few words, that's essentially what I was trying to get at earlier.  Every time there is an answer provided, it turns out we answered the wrong question, or are challenged on some minutiae in the answer we give.  I'm not trying to be adversarial, and I think the discussion has remained largely civil, but it seems like we're talking in circles here.

I think you could interpret that as what it actually was, not "the format is fast so ramp is not needed" but "the format is fast because fast ramp exists".

As I said, that might be what you intended to convey, but it came across as the latter, not the former.  In the first quote I cited, all you said was that the format was fast already.  You did not mention ramp at all outside of people "deliberately not using the best ramp" to try to slow the game down.  In the second quote, your exact words were that you didn't agree with the premise that the format was slow and needed ramp is to speed it up because with it, games are "very fast" - the implication being that games are already fast and ramp just makes them faster yet.  But again, we're splitting hairs.  Mana go fast is the gist of it.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "needed"; I don't think we need all the ramp that does exist to exist in order for us to have a good format, but that's different to whether you need to play it as an individual player to keep up with all the other people who are playing it.

Are you referring to where I said certain decks didn't need ramp to get ahead early?  Pick any 2-drop commander.  When Rona, Herald of Invasion is out, you can loot to ensure your land drops and hit your combos such that it's not necessary to ramp.  Besides, when you can dump a Sheoldred, Whispering One into the graveyard, reanimate it, then copy it with a Spark Double by turn four and just choke everyone else out of the game, sure, having a turn one Mox might let you do it faster, but it's not absolutely necessary (which I believe is the exact argument you made anyway in the aforementioned second quote - and I agree).  Fast mana increases the chances of the deck spiking sooner, but it doesn't per se provide any additional consistency to the deck.  I'd rather reliably be able to win on turn four than only 20% of the time be able to win on turn three - which is partially why I don't play competitive, because that's almost the exact wrong attitude to take in that format.

To the point about feeling the need to keep up with everyone else, yes, you do need to run it when you're playing more competitive decks, and I see you do that in a not insignificant portion of your decks.  That doesn't necessarily mean it's problematic.  To Valmias's point, competitive meta will always find a way to play as fast as possible regardless of the restrictions imposed upon it because that is the very nature of the format.  If you don't like playing that way, then you either need to have a discussion with your playgroup about the power level of decks that get brought to the table, or (if they don't want to change) find a different playgroup that does not play competitively.  That's not to be crass and say, "Suck it up or leave," but that is the reality of the situation.  I experienced more or less the same thing with the group of friends that initially got me into the game, but I won't expand upon the particulars since they're not entirely relevant.

But in answer to the original question: Is ramp too good? No. What would EDH look like with only weak mana rocks? Currently competitive decks would be slower, and many weaker decks would become fully nonviable... Competitive players would not take the moment to appreciate a slower pace of game, but would push the meta further toward lower-mana strategies, and any commander over 3 cmc would be too slow to seriously consider. The game would contract to a smaller pool of playable cards...

That's effectively what I was saying in the hypothetical situation where ramp were to just disappear altogether.  You'd skew to one extreme or another: faster, cheap-to-cost commanders in competitive or slower, grindy battle cruiser games in more casual settings.  There wouldn't be much in between.

[anjinsan]

I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.

What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.

I have no idea. I think it's just an argument against fast mana, but with all ramp being too fast. I find it a difficult hypothetical to parse, and I feel like the goalposts keep moving.

It's not an argument against anything. It's supposed to be a discussion. I'm just saying "hey, do we think that maybe the best ramp cards in EDH are actually better than they need to be?". It's really that simple. For example, Wizards have said they aren't printing any mana rocks cheaper than cmc 3 in Standard sets any more - they obviously think that 2-mana rocks are too good. Well, we have 2-mana rocks in EDH, are they still too good in EDH? It's really that simple.

In the second quote, your exact words were that you didn't agree with the premise that the format was slow and needed ramp is to speed it up because with it, games are "very fast" - the implication being that games are already fast and ramp just makes them faster yet.

Well, apologies for any ambiguity. I was talking about the format, not individual players playing individual games.

Outside of fast ramp, which explicitly exists to unfairly put you ahead of your opponents, I think ramp is a necessary component of how multiplayer works. It's inextricable from the format, and if it's removed then you're shoehorned back into kitchen table magic where top decking is the main factor in determining games. Ramp allows you to have strategy in your turns as well as keep open mana for answers to game ending threats that can appear suddenly.

How does this follow? Not ramping doesn't mean you're more likely to be topdecking (if anything, it's the opposite), nor does it prevent you from having strategy. I don't really see how multiplayer has anything to do with it either - could you elaborate?

Anjinsan, if the goal is to have slower games, then you can just play less ramp.
...
If the benchmark is a win on turn 1-3, we're definitely talking about cEDH and that's not typical play. If the argument is that top-tier decks use a lot of ramp, then yes, that's probably the case, but not every deck is meant to be (or ever could be) top-tier.

Ah. My mistake. Anjinsan, I just looked at your decks to see how you build, and your worst deck would probably beat my best one and be bored doing it. If your decks are reflective of the meta you play in, then I understand your perspective better. I would also wish for a world where Cultivate was the standard for ramp.

So... kind of, yeah, but in a way it doesn't matter what decks you're building or playing, because I'm talking about the format as a whole. Admittedly, you could argue that this kind of boils down to "I don't like cEDH, wouldn't it be great if EDH were more like... not that?" but frankly even relatively low-powered games often see a lot of Sol Rings and two-mana rocks, and really (budget or deliberate handicapping aside) there's no real reason for them not to. My janky Mutant Ninja Turtles deck is no more or less interesting or janky if it used Manaliths rather than signets.

Now, sure, I can just choose to run worse (or no) ramp, but that's kind of a nonargument; in order for that to work, I need the whole table to agree to do the same - at which point we're essentially playing a modified EDH with a more restricted card pool. And so the question remains: would modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp be "better" or "more balanced" (or whatever) than regular EDH? It's funny because I saw someone on Reddit (I know) complaining about people complaining about things, who said "yeah but some people want to ban cmc 2 mana rocks! That's obviously insane!" but... is it?

Also, I don't know what you mean; all my decks are solid Power Level 7s. 

[Valmias]

So... kind of, yeah, but in a way it doesn't matter what decks you're building or playing, because I'm talking about the format as a whole. Admittedly, you could argue that this kind of boils down to "I don't like cEDH, wouldn't it be great if EDH were more like... not that?" but frankly even relatively low-powered games often see a lot of Sol Rings and two-mana rocks, and really (budget or deliberate handicapping aside) there's no real reason for them not to. My janky Mutant Ninja Turtles deck is no more or less interesting or janky if it used Manaliths rather than signets.

Now, sure, I can just choose to run worse (or no) ramp, but that's kind of a nonargument; in order for that to work, I need the whole table to agree to do the same - at which point we're essentially playing a modified EDH with a more restricted card pool. And so the question remains: would modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp be "better" or "more balanced" (or whatever) than regular EDH? It's funny because I saw someone on Reddit (I know) complaining about people complaining about things, who said "yeah but some people want to ban cmc 2 mana rocks! That's obviously insane!" but... is it?

I think you're correct when you say that maybe you just don't like cEDH/high-power EDH. I don't think you can be talking about the format as a whole if you think the experience of ramp is the same in cEDH and lower powered games. You've gotten a lot of feedback on the topic from players who very much don't have the same experience you do. You say there's no reason not to use Sol Rings and two-mana rocks in lower powered games, but we gave a bunch, from the negative benefit from Sol Ring to preferring draw and land drops. But I think the best reason is the one you've been getting at: building the same all the time is boring, and it's fun to mix it up even if that means a marginal drop in effectiveness. At lower power levels you can get away with that without being punished as severely.

Basically, yes you can just choose to run no or worse ramp (like other people do), and that will have an impact on how your deck feels to build and play. You only "need" to have the whole table agree if you think they owe you a win. Some people enjoy playing a more competitive sort of deck, and it seems heavy handed to simply tell people to build their decks to your standard of fun. And isn't that what you are proposing with a cap on what ramp is allowed? You are allowed to play slower if you feel like without making sure everyone else is too, especially if the changes you propose would cripple any deck that isn't already running all best-in-class cards. If you don't like playing in a competitive meta, then maybe talk to your table or investigate some other groups.

You keep asking and people keep saying it: no, a modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp would be neither better nor more balanced than the current rules, partly because it doesn't actually address the root problem, and partly because it ignores a great deal of non-corner cases that would be impacted by the decision. The only thing it would accomplish would be a way to force your table to lower their power level without having to talk to them about it. And it might be a little much to propose that the rules of the whole format be changed for everyone to accomplish this.

[anjinsan]

I feel as though it's got to be one thing or another.

"We don't play fast ramp because we prefer lower-powered games" is akin to saying, yes, ramp is "too good" (whatever that means). Which is fine, but let's just say that, not "ramp is fine if you just don't play it!"

If you're saying, actually, no, there are plenty of mechanically-sound reasons that an optimal deck wouldn't run ramp, then that's a totally different thing... but I am dubious.

You keep asking and people keep saying it: no, a modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp would be neither better nor more balanced than the current rules, partly because it doesn't actually address the root problem, and partly because it ignores a great deal of non-corner cases that would be impacted by the decision.

Well now, this is really what I wanted to get into in the first place! But, why do you say that? If by "the root problem" you're just talking about the general speed and power level of the format then, well, actually it probably does help with that, though it's hardly a silver bullet. But honestly my point is more just that ramp is all but ubiquitous in a way that doesn't really seem to add anything to the game. You say that EDH-with-worse-ramp would not be better, but let's look at the converse: why is EDH with all this fast ramp better than it would be without?

[Valmias]

I feel as though it's got to be one thing or another.
"We don't play fast ramp because we prefer lower-powered games" is akin to saying, yes, ramp is "too good" (whatever that means). Which is fine, but let's just say that, not "ramp is fine if you just don't play it!"
If you're saying, actually, no, there are plenty of mechanically-sound reasons that an optimal deck wouldn't run ramp, then that's a totally different thing... but I am dubious.

No, I don't think anyone is saying they intentionally nerf themselves to play slower. I'm using every Sol Ring I have around. You are saying that you don't like faster games, and I am asking if you have tried simply playing slower, because my slower games don't seem to have the problems you are describing. Other people don't seem to have the same complaints that you do at your level of ramp usage. You are the one with the concern. No one is defending fast mana; we just (apparently) aren't hugely troubled by it.

And I'm not saying that there are mechanically sound reasons for an optimal deck to not run ramp; I am saying that your focus on an optimal deck is what is causing you to run more ramp than you find enjoyable, and if you stopped building optimally you might have more of the experience that you want. I am also saying the difference in performance between optimal and the next step down is marginal, and that at lower power levels the variance of the game provides a more even footing between decks of differing powers. The same variance that you find un-fun at higher levels is integral to the proper functioning of the game at other levels. You can't just toss it out without consequences.   

You keep asking and people keep saying it: no, a modified-EDH-with-worse-ramp would be neither better nor more balanced than the current rules, partly because it doesn't actually address the root problem, and partly because it ignores a great deal of non-corner cases that would be impacted by the decision.

Well now, this is really what I wanted to get into in the first place! But, why do you say that? If by "the root problem" you're just talking about the general speed and power level of the format then, well, actually it probably does help with that, though it's hardly a silver bullet. But honestly my point is more just that ramp is all but ubiquitous in a way that doesn't really seem to add anything to the game. You say that EDH-with-worse-ramp would not be better, but let's look at the converse: why is EDH with all this fast ramp better than it would be without?

The root problem is not the speed of the whole format, it's the power-level of EDH that you play. This is not an EDH problem, but a high-level problem. Most upgraded pre-cons don't have much 0-drop ramp. Changing the rules would not empower you to make any deckbuilding decision that you can't make right now, it would just change the pool of optimal cards that you would be forced to play, and then those would feel ubiquitous. Everything you have suggested that it might accomplish is a state that many many people are currently already playing in. People don't (just) play budget decks to save money; those kinds of restrictions are what other people have come up with to address the issues that you are having. It slows the game down and eliminates the best-in-class options so you have to play more nuanced cards, tailored more specifically to your deck, which promotes variety. It's really fun too! You are welcome any time to play like that.

I'm just not sure where the difficulty is here. It sounds like your concern is that you aren't having fun with fast mana, but have discounted any solution that involves just... not doing that, unless everyone else has to as well. But most people already aren't using fast mana, so... you could just do that? It's like you are trying to convince people to stop doing something that they aren't doing but you are, but you want to make a rule against it so you don't feel like a chump for playing at a lower level. Even though it is the level that you wish you were playing at. Just cut some rocks if you think they're bad for your game.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

  *speechless*

[anjinsan]

No one is defending fast mana; we just (apparently) aren't hugely troubled by it.

So, what, your answer is "yes, ramp is too good, but I just don't care"? Well... OK?

The root problem is not the speed of the whole format, it's the power-level of EDH that you play. This is not an EDH problem, but a high-level problem.

I mean... it is. The power level I play at is the EDH power level. It's part of the format. If that's a problem (but see below) it is 100% a format problem, because it's part of the format.

It sounds like your concern is that you aren't having fun with fast mana, but have discounted any solution that involves just... not doing that, unless everyone else has to as well.

I think you've misunderstood me; I'm not saying "oh woe is me, I keep playing fast mana and hating it!" but rather musing upon the nature of the format. If I just wanted to whine about something I'd have gone to Reddit, but I thought forums were a place to, like, discuss things. Apologies if it's too hypothetical or philosophical, but "just don't play ramp" is, aside from being a pretty terrible answer for reasons which should be obvious (but which I won't repeat), kind of missing the point.

[Landale]

No one is defending fast mana; we just (apparently) aren't hugely troubled by it.

So, what, your answer is "yes, ramp is too good, but I just don't care"? Well... OK?

More like "Ramp is ramp, so whatever.". It isn't good, it isn't bad, it just is.

[EMaxxi]

No one is defending fast mana; we just (apparently) aren't hugely troubled by it.

So, what, your answer is "yes, ramp is too good, but I just don't care"? Well... OK?

More like "Ramp is ramp, so whatever.". It isn't good, it isn't bad, it just is.

Ramp by itself does nothing. But the cards you can ramp into can be problematic or unfun.
I would say that ramp is "too good" when you ramp into stuff that invalidates, or has the potential to invalidate, everything else that happened in the game up to that point (Apex Devastator, Expropriate, Omniscience).

[robort]

To answer the question in general of is ramp to good? This is just based upon experience and observation of my playgroups and people I have played against. I have heard these 2 expressions more than the 3rd one I am going to post. Expression #1 "If only I had 1 more mana I could do the thing I really want to do" and "I just need to hit one more land or get some ramp and then I could do a thing".. Those 2 are said more compared to "I have nothing to do/play but I do have a boat load of mana I can use". In essence having not enough mana to do something is said more compared to having to much mana and nothing to do. So the answer for me would be no there is no such thing as ramp being to good.