I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.
What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.
I have no idea. I think it's just an argument against fast mana, but with all ramp being too fast. I find it a difficult hypothetical to parse, and I feel like the goalposts keep moving.
Sorry, the more precise I try to get with my language, the more long-winded I get. Also trying to address multiple people in a single post at a time doesn't help. In so few words, that's essentially what I was trying to get at earlier. Every time there is an answer provided, it turns out we answered the wrong question, or are challenged on some minutiae in the answer we give. I'm not trying to be adversarial, and I think the discussion has remained largely civil, but it seems like we're talking in circles here.
I think you could interpret that as what it actually was, not "the format is fast so ramp is not needed" but "the format is fast because fast ramp exists".
As I said, that might be what you intended to convey, but it came across as the latter, not the former. In the first quote I cited, all you said was that the format was fast already. You did not mention ramp at all outside of people "deliberately not using the best ramp" to try to slow the game down. In the second quote, your exact words were that you didn't agree with the premise that the format was slow and needed ramp is to speed it up because with it, games are "very fast" - the implication being that games are already fast and ramp just makes them faster yet. But again, we're splitting hairs. Mana go fast is the gist of it.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "needed"; I don't think we need all the ramp that does exist to exist in order for us to have a good format, but that's different to whether you need to play it as an individual player to keep up with all the other people who are playing it.
Are you referring to where I said certain decks didn't need ramp to get ahead early? Pick any 2-drop commander. When
Rona, Herald of Invasion is out, you can loot to ensure your land drops and hit your combos such that it's not necessary to ramp. Besides, when you can dump a
Sheoldred, Whispering One into the graveyard,
reanimate it, then copy it with a
Spark Double by turn four and just
choke everyone else out of the game, sure, having a turn one Mox might let you do it faster, but it's not absolutely necessary (which I believe is the exact argument you made anyway in the aforementioned second quote - and I agree). Fast mana increases the chances of the deck spiking sooner, but it doesn't per se provide any additional consistency to the deck. I'd rather reliably be able to win on turn four than only 20% of the time be able to win on turn three - which is partially why I don't play competitive, because that's almost the exact wrong attitude to take in that format.
To the point about feeling the need to keep up with everyone else, yes, you do need to run it when you're playing more competitive decks, and I see you do that in a not insignificant portion of your decks. That doesn't necessarily mean it's problematic. To Valmias's point, competitive meta will always find a way to play as fast as possible regardless of the restrictions imposed upon it because that is the very nature of the format. If you don't like playing that way, then you either need to have a discussion with your playgroup about the power level of decks that get brought to the table, or (if they don't want to change) find a different playgroup that does not play competitively. That's not to be crass and say, "Suck it up or leave," but that is the reality of the situation. I experienced
more or less the same thing with the group of friends that initially got me into the game, but I won't expand upon the particulars since they're not entirely relevant.
But in answer to the original question: Is ramp too good? No. What would EDH look like with only weak mana rocks? Currently competitive decks would be slower, and many weaker decks would become fully nonviable... Competitive players would not take the moment to appreciate a slower pace of game, but would push the meta further toward lower-mana strategies, and any commander over 3 cmc would be too slow to seriously consider. The game would contract to a smaller pool of playable cards...
That's effectively what I was saying in the hypothetical situation where ramp were to just
disappear altogether. You'd skew to one extreme or another: faster, cheap-to-cost commanders in competitive or slower, grindy battle cruiser games in more casual settings. There wouldn't be much in between.